Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hatsoff · 12-31-2008, 03:27 PM

I recently learned of two very early instances of Christians writing about the cross as if it were a spiritual entity. I was wondering if you folks knew of any more, or if you have any idea how these traditions came about.

Here is the first example, from the Gospel of the Savior (AKA unknown Berlin Gospel). Jesus talks to the cross:

62 [The Savior] said to us, “No lot surpasses your own, nor is there any glory more exalted than [your own. 63 ...31 lines untranslatable...] [... 31 lines untranslatable...] 64 O entirety [...2 lines untranslatable...] 65 O [...19 lines untranslatable...] cross [...5 lines untranslatable...] three [days I will] take you[...] with me and and show you [the] things you desire [to] see. 66 So [do not be alarmed] when [you] see [me]!”

...

98 “[...5 lines untranslatable...] cross.”—“Amen!”

99 “I [will hasten to] you.”—“Amen!”

100 “A [dispensation...8 lines untranslatable...] cross [...].”—“Amen!”

101 “[For] those on the [right will] take shelter [under you, apart from] those on the [left, 102 O] cross, [...5 lines untranslatable...], 103 O cross, [...] you [...] height...[...] for this is your desire. 104 O cross, do not be afraid! 105 I am rich. I will fill you with my wealth. 106 [I] will mount you, O cross. [I] will be [hung] upon you [...] ...[...”—“Amen!”]

107 “[...6 lines untranslatable...]. 108 [Do not] weep, O [cross], but rather [rejoice] and recognize [your] Lord as he [is coming toward] you, 109 that he is [gentle] and [lowly]!”—“Amen!”

110 [The] second [...3 lines untranslatable...] but 111 [I am] rich. I will [fill you] with my wealth. 112 [A little while], O cross, and what is lacking will become complete, and what is stunted will become full. 113 A little while, O cross, and what has [fallen] will rise. 114 [A little while], O [cross], and the entire fullness will become complete. 115 [...6 lines untranslatable...] they have been waiting for you, one [laughing] and rejoicing, another weeping, [mourning], and feeling remorse. 116 [Precede] me, O cross! I [in turn] will precede you. 117 [You and] I, O [cross, we are... 118 We are...10 lines untranslatable.... 119 ..., O] cross, [truly], whoever is far from [you] is far [from] [me].”

This is the second example, from the Gospel of Peter, chapter 10. God talks to the cross, and it answers back:

1 Now when these soldiers saw that, they woke up the centurion and the elders (for they also were there keeping watch). 2 While they were yet telling them the things which they had seen, they saw three men come out of the tomb, two of them sustaining the other one, and a cross following after them. 3 The heads of the two they saw had heads that reached up to heaven, but the head of him that was led by them wen beyond heaven. 4 And they heard a voice out of the heavens saying, "Have you preached unto them that sleep?" 5 The answer that was heard from the cross was, "Yes!"

What do you folks make of these passages?

Toto · 12-31-2008, 03:53 PM

Your first quote is from Lost Scriptures (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Bart D. Ehrman, available on google books. There is also a book (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Charles Hedrick and Paul Mirecki, the translators.

Roger Pearse has a page on this gospel here.

I don't see this as the cross being a "spiritual" entity, more like a personal entity. Jesus addresses the cross, and welcomes it as part of his fulfilling of his mission, as he does in a religious image in a local church.

But it is difficult to interpret these gnostic texts.

mountainman · 12-31-2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

I recently learned of two very early instances of Christians writing about the cross as if it were a spiritual entity. I was wondering if you folks knew of any more, or if you have any idea how these traditions came about.

Here is the first example, from the Gospel of the Savior (AKA unknown Berlin Gospel). Jesus talks to the cross:

This is the second example, from the Gospel of Peter, chapter 10. God talks to the cross, and it answers back:

What do you folks make of these passages?

Dear hatsoff,

These passages are cited from the flip-side of the new testament canon otherwise referred to as the new testament apochrypha. "Hidden writings". The references to a talking cross here are echoed in all sorts of talking animals and creatures in the apochypha. The apochyphal passages are generally very loosely referred to as -- partly -- gnostic, but the term gnostic itself opens another can of worms. Very little if any interpetation in the standard textual critical manner can be securely applied to the apochrypha as a whole, and they have been described by at least one commentator, as a textual critic's nightmare.

On the gPeter:

Quote:

In 1886, when it was first recovered by a French archaeologist, Urbain Bouriant, from an 8th or 9th-century manuscript that had been respectfully buried with an Egyptian monk, the fragmentary Gospel of Peter (now in the Cairo Museum) was the first non-canonical gospel to have been rediscovered, preserved in the dry sand of Egypt. Publication, delayed until 1892, occasioned intense interest.

Best wishes,

Pete

andrewcriddle · 01-02-2009, 08:32 AM

These passages may be relevant

Sibylline Oracles

Quote:

O the Wood, O so blessed, upon which
God was outstretched; the earth shall not have thee,
But thou shalt look upon a heavenly house,
When thou, O God, shalt flash thine eye of fire.

Apocryphal New Testament

Quote:

Martyrdom of Andrew
Hail, O cross, yea be glad indeed ! Well know I that
thou shalt henceforth be at rest, thou that hast for a long
time been wearied, being set up and awaiting me. I come
unto thee whom I know to belong to me. I come unto
thee that hast yearned after me. I know thy mystery,
for the which thou art set up: for thou art planted in
the world to establish the things that are unstable:
and the one part of thee stretcheth up toward heaven
that thou mayest signify the heavenly word (or, the word
that is above) (the head of all things) : and another part
of thee is spread out to the right hand and the left that
it may put to flight the envious and adverse power of
the evil one, and gather into one the things that are
scattered abroad (or, the world): And another part of
thee is planted in the earth, and securely set in the
depth, that thou mayest join the things that are in the
earth and that are under the earth unto the heavenly
things O cross, device (contrivance) of the salvation of the
Most High! O cross, trophy of the victory [of Christ]
over the enemies ! O cross, planted upon the earth and having thy fruit in the heavens ! O name of the cross,
filled with all things (lit. a thing filled with all).

Well done, O cross, that hast bound down the mobility
of the world (or, the circumference) ! Well done, O shape
of understanding that hast shaped the shapeless (earth ?) !
Well done, O unseen chastisement that sorely chastisest
the substance of the knowledge that hath many gods,
and drivest out from among mankind him that devised
it! Well done, thou that didst clothe thyself with the
Lord, and didst bear the thief as a fruit, and didst call
the apostle to repentance, and didst not refuse to
accept us !

Quote:

Martyrdom of Peter
And having approached and standing by the cross
he began to say: O name of the cross, thou hidden mystery!
O grace ineffable that is pronounced in the name of the cross !
nature of man, that cannot be separated from God! O love
(friendship) unspeakable and inseparable, that cannot be shown
forth by unclean lips! I seize thee now, I that am at the end
of my delivery hence (or, of my coming hither). I will declare
thee, what thou art: I will not keep silence of the mystery
of the cross which of old was shut and hidden from my soul.

Andrew Criddle

hatsoff · 01-04-2009, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

These passages may be relevant

They certainly are! Thank you!

12-31-2008, 03:27 PM	#1
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	Anthropomorphic cross? I recently learned of two very early instances of Christians writing about the cross as if it were a spiritual entity. I was wondering if you folks knew of any more, or if you have any idea how these traditions came about. Here is the first example, from the Gospel of the Savior (AKA unknown Berlin Gospel). Jesus talks to the cross: 62 [The Savior] said to us, “No lot surpasses your own, nor is there any glory more exalted than [your own. 63 ...31 lines untranslatable...] [... 31 lines untranslatable...] 64 O entirety [...2 lines untranslatable...] 65 O [...19 lines untranslatable...] cross [...5 lines untranslatable...] three [days I will] take you[...] with me and and show you [the] things you desire [to] see. 66 So [do not be alarmed] when [you] see [me]!” ... 98 “[...5 lines untranslatable...] cross.”—“Amen!” 99 “I [will hasten to] you.”—“Amen!” 100 “A [dispensation...8 lines untranslatable...] cross [...].”—“Amen!” 101 “[For] those on the [right will] take shelter [under you, apart from] those on the [left, 102 O] cross, [...5 lines untranslatable...], 103 O cross, [...] you [...] height...[...] for this is your desire. 104 O cross, do not be afraid! 105 I am rich. I will fill you with my wealth. 106 [I] will mount you, O cross. [I] will be [hung] upon you [...] ...[...”—“Amen!”] 107 “[...6 lines untranslatable...]. 108 [Do not] weep, O [cross], but rather [rejoice] and recognize [your] Lord as he [is coming toward] you, 109 that he is [gentle] and [lowly]!”—“Amen!” 110 [The] second [...3 lines untranslatable...] but 111 [I am] rich. I will [fill you] with my wealth. 112 [A little while], O cross, and what is lacking will become complete, and what is stunted will become full. 113 A little while, O cross, and what has [fallen] will rise. 114 [A little while], O [cross], and the entire fullness will become complete. 115 [...6 lines untranslatable...] they have been waiting for you, one [laughing] and rejoicing, another weeping, [mourning], and feeling remorse. 116 [Precede] me, O cross! I [in turn] will precede you. 117 [You and] I, O [cross, we are... 118 We are...10 lines untranslatable.... 119 ..., O] cross, [truly], whoever is far from [you] is far [from] [me].” This is the second example, from the Gospel of Peter, chapter 10. God talks to the cross, and it answers back: 1 Now when these soldiers saw that, they woke up the centurion and the elders (for they also were there keeping watch). 2 While they were yet telling them the things which they had seen, they saw three men come out of the tomb, two of them sustaining the other one, and a cross following after them. 3 The heads of the two they saw had heads that reached up to heaven, but the head of him that was led by them wen beyond heaven. 4 And they heard a voice out of the heavens saying, "Have you preached unto them that sleep?" 5 The answer that was heard from the cross was, "Yes!" What do you folks make of these passages?

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12-31-2008, 03:53 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Your first quote is from Lost Scriptures (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Bart D. Ehrman, available on google books. There is also a book (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Charles Hedrick and Paul Mirecki, the translators. Roger Pearse has a page on this gospel here. I don't see this as the cross being a "spiritual" entity, more like a personal entity. Jesus addresses the cross, and welcomes it as part of his fulfilling of his mission, as he does in a religious image in a local church. But it is difficult to interpret these gnostic texts.

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