Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 06-20-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Do you have a daily diary of Herod and what he did so that you know the children were not killed?

We have Josephus who, despite clearly enjoying listing out the evils of Herod, failed to mention the alleged mass murder of children. It simply is not credible that such a crime would have gone unmentioned. This is a relatively strong argument from silence.

Quote:

Do you have Quirinius' diary and know exactly what he was doing during his entire lifetime?

We don't have his diary but, yes, we know enough about him to say we know he was off elsewhere at the time doing something else. We also know the specific circumstances that lead to his taking the position in Judea and when those took place. Herod had been dead for nearly a decade before Quirinius took office.

Quote:

I think that what you perceive as errors are just areas that you are ignorant of.

My thoughts exactly.

I also suspect you haven't bothered to read the thread with any care because, if that were the case, you would have noticed that Atheos recognized the futility of the effort and left this thread long ago.

On the upside, it is entirely possible the good "dr" has found someone both eager and willing to swallow the nonsense he has been peddling.

Doug Shaver · 06-20-2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Are you aware of what value the testimony of women had in the first century.

Can you enlighten us by quoting from a first-century source?

If not from the first century, just show us the earliest documentation you can.

dr lazer blast · 06-20-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Amaleqs arguments from authority are exactly that 'arguments from authority'.

Yes, precisely the sort in which you should engage. It won't help your current position but any future efforts can only benefit.

did you have a non fallicious point? I didn't think so.

Quote:

Yet another mischaracterization? I said from the first that this was the plain reading of the passage and subsequently offered the independent, expert opinion of Paster Guzik to show I wasn't just fabricating a unique reading of the passage to serve my own purposes. Everyone reading this thread recognizes that you are unable to do the same whether you grasp that point or not.

regardless of how you explain it, you're supporting your assertion with an argument from authority. So once again you have no point.

Quote:

So the sarcasm slipped right by you, eh?

logic slipped by you obviously

aChristian · 06-20-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Do you have a daily diary of Herod and what he did so that you know the children were not killed?

We have Josephus who, despite clearly enjoying listing out the evils of Herod, failed to mention the alleged mass murder of children. It simply is not credible that such a crime would have gone unmentioned. This is a relatively strong argument from silence.

Are you sure that Josephus mentioned every evil deed that Herod did? Are you sure that Josephus knew of every evil deed that Herod did?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

We don't have his diary but, yes, we know enough about him to say we know he was off elsewhere at the time doing something else. We also know the specific circumstances that lead to his taking the position in Judea and when those took place. Herod had been dead for nearly a decade before Quirinius took office.

No. You don't know enough about him to know that he was off somewhere else. If you read some of the discussions about him, you will see that he was in the area and in a position to have had authority in the area. We don't have his diary to know all the details, but you are making bold claims when you say you know that your guess about the situation from 2000 years away is more accurate than the records of those who were alive at the time. The Bible is correct.

Deus Ex · 06-20-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

No. You don't know enough about him to know that he was off somewhere else. If you read some of the discussions about him, you will see that he was in the area and in a position to have had authority in the area. We don't have his diary to know all the details, but you are making bold claims when you say you know that your guess about the situation from 2000 years away is more accurate than the records of those who were alive at the time. The Bible is correct.

You have proof that Quirinius was Governor twice? Please produce it. The Bible is errant.

aChristian · 06-20-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

No. You don't know enough about him to know that he was off somewhere else. If you read some of the discussions about him, you will see that he was in the area and in a position to have had authority in the area. We don't have his diary to know all the details, but you are making bold claims when you say you know that your guess about the situation from 2000 years away is more accurate than the records of those who were alive at the time. The Bible is correct.

You have proof that Quirinius was Governor twice? Please produce it. The Bible is errant.

As I said, "If you read some of the discussions about him, you will see that he was in the area and in a position to have had authority in the area. We don't have his diary to know all the details". There are different guesses on Quirinius' exact position and location during every day of his life, but there is enough evidence, if you choose not to ignore it, to show that the account in the Bible is in accord with the facts of Quirinius' life and times. You can go to many conservative websites if you really don't know this and they will provide the information I am referring to.

Net2004 · 06-20-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

You said many things that I believe are incorrect in your post. I just picked this section as an example. Do you have a daily diary of Herod and what he did so that you know the children were not killed? Do you have Quirinius' diary and know exactly what he was doing during his entire lifetime? I think that what you perceive as errors are just areas that you are ignorant of. I think the Bible is accurate and many conservative scholars have given good answers to your objections. I also doubt that intellectual doubts are the reason you left your pulpit. In my opinion, the historical and scientific evidence for the Bible and Christianity is massive and irrefutable as any honest inquiry will reveal.

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The Flight to Egypt

13 Now when they had gone, behold, an angel R35 of the Lord appeared R36 to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."

14 So Joseph F33 got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. 15 He remained F34 there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "OUT R37 OF EGYPT I CALLED MY R38 SON."

Herod Slaughters Babies

16 Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the R39 magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew R40 all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.

luke 2:22
when the time came for thier purification...they brought him UP TO Jeruslem..."

the authours of lukes infancy account probably considered matthew's account of herods slaughter and danger from herod to be complete fib.why would they have had the baby "brought up to jerusalem" if there was a herod who wanted to destroy the baby?

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Luke describes Jesus being presented in the temple to repeated public pronouncements of his status, which would not have escaped Herod's supposedly murderous eye (or memory).

Deus Ex · 06-20-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

You have proof that Quirinius was Governor twice? Please produce it. The Bible is errant.

As I said, "If you read some of the discussions about him, you will see that he was in the area and in a position to have had authority in the area. We don't have his diary to know all the details". There are different guesses on Quirinius' exact position and location during every day of his life, but there is enough evidence, if you choose not to ignore it, to show that the account in the Bible is in accord with the facts of Quirinius' life and times. You can go to many conservative websites if you really don't know this and they will provide the information I am referring to.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...quirinius.html

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/Quirinius.html

Here are some links to educate you.

gregor · 06-20-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

You can go to many conservative websites if you really don't know this BECAUSE I DON"T KNOW ENOUGH TO SET FORTH A CREDIBLE ARGUMENT .

[edited by gregor]

Fixed it for you.

sschlichter · 06-20-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Are you aware of what value the testimony of women had in the first century.

Can you enlighten us by quoting from a first-century source?

If not from the first century, just show us the earliest documentation you can.

You are saying that you are unclear that if someone were making up a story in first century Palestine and needed an eye-witness, a woman would not be the best place to start. Is that really what you want to claim needs to be proven to you?

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