Magus55

No it isn't, because we trust God to be 100% perfect and righteous. Meaning He can't do anything wrong, or anything that isn't meant to be that way. Do I think Hell seems severe? Yes, but i'm also a measly human. I trust that God knows what He is doing, even if I don't understand it. I'm not gonna reject God or Christianity just because of a concept I can't fully understand. God doesn't make mistakes, and everything He does is righteous. From our perspective, it may seem very severe and cruel. But to the Sovereign ruler of the universe, our opinion doesn't mean didly squat unless God asks for it.

winstonjen

No one threatens people with the witch from H&G, and no one tries to force their outdated, useless crap onto others with the threat of force as happened in the Crusades and Inquisitions.

Where do you get this trust? From an ancient book? You yourself admitted that we don't have the originals, so what you are actually trusting are subjective translations by human beings. The same human beings you detest so much.

No offense, Magus, but at least spell 'ridiculous' correctly when you complain about it.

seebs

Steven Brust, speaking through his character Vlad Taltos, made the fascinating point that if something absolutely has to be true for you to survive, you may as well act as though it's true, because if it isn't, there's nothing you can do.

I suspect the same basic principle is often at work; if, in fact, there is a creator, then either the creator is just, or we're screwed, so we might as well assume that the creator is just.

winstonjen

Still, there's no point living in fear and uncertainty.

Haran

Perhaps my theism keeps me from being able to understand this, but out of curiousity, why does the fact that some christians think that your beliefs condemn you to eternal hell become a stumbling block in rational discourse?

From my perspective, it seems like it would depend on how it was used... If I proposed reasonable questions and comments and in response a person simply told me I was going to eternal hell, then I suppose that would be a stumbling block to rational discourse.

However, if it is an unexpressed belief, how is that a problem for rational discourse?

Even if expressed, it is usually done in the probably vain hope that it will "wake a person up" to what is believed might be their future after death... That said, I doubt that many Christians would wish this fate on anyone and that is why many work in hopes of turning people toward salvation. I would imagine that many Christians believe what is written in 2 Peter 3:9: "He {God} is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." I also think that many Christians have hope and many even a belief that God would not condemn good people (perhaps not even "finitely bad people") to eternal hell... Like Magus, many would simply claim that they do not ultimately understand God's purpose except that he is supposed to be just and righteous...

Finally, if you don't believe in the Christian hell, then why is it a stumbling block to rational discourse? I don't understand this really. If a muslim were to tell me I was going to muslim hell, since I don't believe in it, it would not bother me. If they were able to carry on a rational discussion in spite of this belief, I don't see the problem.

Kandeda Trefil

There's nothing like a lovely bible verse to defuse Christians. Jesus' words: Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29) The words of a typical con man/guru? Yep! :banghead: But it keeps the rabble in check...

seebs

Indeed. However, since the question is obviously unanswerable, there's no point worrying, so poof, no fear.

I guess this is more Zen than anything else, but hey, it works.

Never waste valuable time worrying about things you can't even know, let alone do anything about.

Clutch

I agree that this is not inherently a problem.

More of a problem is the not-especially-rare theistic idea (scriptural in at least the case of Christianity) that one already needs to believe in order to recognize the force of the evidence for theism. This is more of an essential stumbling block to rational exchange, I think.

Heathen Dawn

OK, so don’t respect atheism, it’s no skin off my nose; just leave us alone (I mean, in the sense of “live and let live” ).

You seem to think beliefs don’t have consequences. In fact they do. The fact that you can believe that the majority of mankind going to eternal torture is perfect justice has dire consequences: it cheapens the value of humanity, and it makes you insensitive to suffering. It is because of the doctrine of hell that the fires of the Inquisition were lighted: churchmen reasoned that, since God is about to punish unbelievers with fire in the end, it was only following God’s model for them to do the same.

The doctrine of hell is a stain. A veritable stain on humanity. I don’t believe in hell, but those many people who do and think it’s perfect justice are thus made insensitive to a predicament much, much worse than the Holocaust. Think about it sometime. What you believe has real consequences.

Magus55

I'm insensitive to suffering? Yeah, must be why i might end up being a doctor and devoting the majority of my life to stop suffering.


God will execute judgement in the end times. Jesus doesn't tell us to go out and commit atrocities among unbelievers. Your issues are with those who kill falsely in the name of Christianity, and don't represent Jesus' teachings, nor Christianity. Jesus said love your neighbor and turn the other cheek. Islam is the only religion I know that still to this day condones atrocities and slaughtering the enemy.

We don't necessarily think from our perspective its perfect justice, we just know that we don't understand all of God's reasons for things, and trust that He does know what He is doing. I don't however, think banishing unbelievers to oblivion is justice. They get away with offending God their whole lives and many times causing more evil and destruction on the Earth, yet they don't have to suffer any consequences? That isn't justice.