Originally Posted by Minimalist

Read a real archaeology book.

There are always charlatans out there willing to get rich by telling the gullible what they want to hear. How else to explain "The Creation Museum?"

I suggest you start with "The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman, if you dare.

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to IamJoseph: You said that the Greeks got their alphabetic writings from the Hebrew. Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet

Quote:

"The Greek alphabet is a set of twenty-four letters that has been used to write the Greek language since the late 9th or early 8th century BCE. It is the first and oldest alphabet in the narrow sense that it notes each vowel and consonant with a separate symbol. It is as such in continuous use to this day. The letters were also used to represent Greek numerals, beginning in the 2nd century BCE.

"The Greek alphabet is descended from the Phoenician alphabet, and is not related to Linear B or the Cypriot syllabary, earlier writing systems for Greek. It has given rise to many other alphabets used in Europe and the Middle East, including the Latin alphabet. In addition to being used for writing Modern Greek, its letters are today used as symbols in mathematics and science, particle names in physics, as names of stars, in the names of fraternities and sororities, in the naming of supernumerary tropical cyclones, and for other purposes.

"Vowel signs were originally not used in Semitic alphabets. Whereas in the earlier West Semitic family of scripts (Phoenician, Hebrew, Moabite etc.) a letter always stood for a consonant in association with an unspecified vowel or no vowel; because these languages were Semitic, they lost no legibility in having no vowels, as Semitic words are based on triliteral roots that make meaning clear with only the consonants present, and vowels are clear from context. Greek, however, is an Indo-European language, and thus differences in vowels make for vast differences in meanings. Thus the Greek alphabet divided the letters into two categories, consonants ("things that sound along") and vowels, where the consonant letters always had to be accompanied by vowels to create a pronounceable unit. Although the old Ugaritic alphabet did develop matres lectionis, i.e., use of consonant letters to denote vowels, they were never employed systematically."

Johnny Skeptic:

Regarding "The Greek alphabet is descended from the Phoenician alphabet," consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

Quote:

"When the Phoenician alphabet was first uncovered in the 19th century, its origins were unknown. Scholars at first believed that the script was a direct variation of Egyptian hieroglyphs. This idea was especially popular due to the recent decipherment of hieroglyphs. However, scholars could not find any link between the two writing systems. Certain scholars hypothesized ties with Hieratic, Cuneiform, or even an independent creation, perhaps inspired by some other writing system. The theories of independent creation ranged from the idea of a single man conceiving it to the Hyksos people forming it from corrupt Egyptian.

"In January 1855 a Phoenician inscription in twenty-two lines was found among the ruins of Sidon. Each line contained about forty or fifty characters. A facsimile copy of the writing was published in United States Magazine in July 1855. Laborers working for a Turkish employer made the discovery. The inscription was on the lid of a large stone sarcophagus carved in fine Egyptian style. The writing was primarily a genealogical history of a king of Sidon buried in the sarcophagus. It was in the ancient Hebrew language except for a few words. The inscription was published in modern Hebrew by a professor at Yale University.

"With the discovery of the Proto-Sinaitic alphabet, scientists discovered the missing link between Egyptian hieroglyphs and the Proto-Canaanite script. This discovery reinforced the earlier hypothesis of Phoenician's Egyptian origin. The Proto-Sinaitic script was in use from ca. 1500 BC in the Sinai and the Levant, probably by early West Semitic speakers. In Canaan it developed into the Proto-Canaanite alphabet from ca. 1400 BC, adapted to writing a Canaanite (Northwest Semitic) language.

"The Phoenician alphabet seamlessly continues the Proto-Canaanite alphabet, by convention called Phoenician from the mid 11th century, where it is first attested on inscribed bronze arrowheads. Phoenician became the widespread form of Proto-Canaanite; previously, the script had been restricted to recording only Canaanite languages."

Johnny Skeptic:

Please note "With the discovery of the Proto-Sinaitic alphabet, scientists discovered the missing link between Egyptian hieroglyphs and the Proto-Canaanite script. This discovery reinforced the earlier hypothesis of Phoenician's Egyptian origin."

Would you like to claim that the Egyptians got their writings from the Hebrew?

Would you like to claim that the Sumerians got their cuneiform writings from the Hebrew? Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform

Quote:

"Cuneiform script (pronounced /kjuːˈniː.ɨfɔrm/ kew-NEE-i-form or /ˈkjuːnɨfɔrm/ KEW-ni-form) is one of the earliest known forms of written expression. Emerging in Sumer around the 30th century BC, with predecessors reaching into the late 4th millennium (the Uruk IV period), cuneiform writing began as a system of pictographs. In the course of the 3rd millennium BC the pictorial representations became simplified and more abstract."

Johnny Skeptic:

When do you date the invention of the Hebrew alphabet?

Whatever intellectual abilties ancient Hebrews had might have been largely due to intermarrying with other cultures. In addition, the abilities of the Hebrews were nowhere near the abilities of the Greeks regarding science, philosophy, and art. Greeks were an important part of the Greco-Roman Empire, which by comparison with what Hebrews accomplished, is barely worth mentioning.

Originally Posted by Anat

...
Both the Joash inscription and the pomegranate went through the hands of Oded Golan. What is the latest on their authenticity?

....

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

I have reservations the Phoenecian is older than the Hebrew.......

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

I have encountered references that the Greeks themselves admit they got their alphabeticals from the Hebrew.......

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

The Temple Pomegranate
The Joash Tablet
Recently, the press and media have been discussing another inscribed tablet that was discovered in the summer of 2000 at Jerusalem's Temple Mount. The find was made by Islamic Trust renovators of the El-Aqsa mosque which occupies part of the Haram el Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) site, and the tablet is know held by an Israeli collector.
Partially broken, the Arkosic Dead Sea sandstone tablet measures 31 x 24 x 7 cms, and carries 15 lines of text written in ancient Hebrew with elements of Aramaic and old Phoenician. It describes repairs to Solomon's Temple as ordered by Solomon's descendant, King Joash of Judah in the 9th century BC.
Joash (Jehoash) reigned about 839-799 BC and, in accord with this, carbon-14 dating by Israel's Geological Institute, under Shimon Ilani, has authenticated the inscription as being around 2,800 years old. The Institute's director, Amos Bean, reported that they had discovered flecks of gold burnt into the stone, indicating that it was probably in the Temple when the building was destroyed by invading Babylonians in about 586 BC.
In line with the Bible text of 2-Kings 12:1-6 and 11-17, the tablet describes how the King instructed the priests to "take holy money … to buy quarry stones and timber and copper and labour to carry out the duty with faith."

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

I cannot recall the context of the navy discussion, but it was not as an evidence relating to how longuage spread. As the Hebrew was always an alphabetical script, I asked for evidence of a Greek alphabetical writings older than the Hebrew - this was my logical question here, and it is an obvious requirement.

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

However, as there is a widesread notion the Phoenecian is older than the Hebrew, both being alphabetical, there is also the notion the greek came from the phoenecian, and thereby older than the Hebrew. I have reservations the phoenecian is older than the Hebrew, despite it being an older nation, and I have not encountered any greek alphabetical writings older than the Hebrew. I have encountered references that the Greeks themselves admit they got their alphabeticals from the Hebrew, when the Septuagint was translated in 300 BCE; then I found a back-up for this in a 2000 year writings of Josephus, which describes this history, which was then only 300 years prior to his time, and that he had access to Greek and Roman archives when he wrote.

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

With regard the phoenecien and hebrew, a coin was discovered one month ago, dated 2900 years, and contains Hebrew alphabetical writings, with the name of a Hebrew king. This tells me that the Hebrew was already well established here, because a coin is a representation of a country's state of culture. I know of no such equivalence of the phonecien, which is a language which does not contain some of the alphabets in the Hebrew [e.g. 'V'], indicating either that the Hebrew is older, or that it contains independent imprints not from the phonecian, or that they both come from an older, singular language.

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

The other problem is there are no Phoenecian books, as with the Hebrew, which has copious, advanced grammar and historical depictions, approx 100 years apart, its narrative datings being over 3000 years old: why is this so? It really does not matter which is older, as both are listed among the first three oldest alphabetical writings - but this subject is important from a bigger picture for humanity as a whole, and much of ancient history is distorted when reading only from European views.

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

..., a coin was discovered one month ago, dated 2900 years, and contains Hebrew alphabetical writings, with the name of a Hebrew king.