Haran

Vinnie, if when you were a Christian you felt that you were peddling lies then it is no wonder it took so little for you to turn away from Christianity as you knew it. However, most of us are not "selling lies". Many of us have made and will make honest mistakes.

At one time I remember you being quite zealous for God, Vinnie, and mostly a friendly, non-confrontational type. It has been interesting, though sad to me, to watch your transformation. I find you interesting because I have known other honest people every bit as intelligent as you who retained their faith in God. For some reason it especially saddens me to see you attack the faith you once held and the people you once seemed to care about.

Layman

If it is not deliberate, then it is not a lie. It is, more specifically, a mistake.

Where you a liar when you were a Christian? If so, why should we think your character has changed for the better since then? Is it not more accurate to say that your previous beliefs were mistaken and your current ones more accurate.

I always thought you were sincere. I'd be sad to here you were not.

Vinnie

I peddled misinformation. Further, my views have changed and continue to change on so many issues. All that tells me is two things 1) I am far from all knowing and 2) I at least honsestly assess the evidence since it dictates the ever-changing direction of my journey. I've reached a stable period now.

When did I say most of you are selling lies? If you --specifically you and layman-- being as smart and well read as both of you are in this field--- endorse books like Josh Mcdowell's NETDAV or Montgomery's work then I have you listed in this category.

If you fairly assess the facts and recognize that these amatuers have no business bothering with history since they have no idea what they are saying//doing I would not put you here.

To use an example, can either of you two honestly say that Mcdowell's book is ridiculous? Or will you dishonestly simply side with the Christian because he is on your team regardless of how stupid the view point? Anyone who studies the area and does not think Joshy is ridiculous is being dishonest.

I still am. Drop by my forum.

I agree I've lost something there. Unfortunately.

Its been sad watching it on this end as well!

Of course being ostracized from all my friends//communities for evolving beliefs had nothing to do with it!

I still have faith in God.

Since when is pointing out creationists and Josh Mcdowell apologists are idiots equivalent to attacking the faith? I may be attacking a few people but these silly views are not an inherent part of Christian beliefs.

One does not need to be intentionaly stating false claims as true to be selling lies. I purposefully stated him as "selling" rather than "telling" lies for a reason.

As an example, most creationists I know are scientifically inept. Many of them inadvertantly sell lies that they think are the truth. Most of them are not intentionally lying but someone somewhere is lying along the chain. Professional scientists do not assess the evidence honestly and come out as young earth creationists. One or two might have been misinformed but not what we see now...

Someone is making the lies and others are selling them even if they don't know it. Its strange that the two of you, who to the best of my knowledge, believe humanity is so evil that we deserve eternal death in hell, would be so optimistic towards the characters behind these writings.

I simply do not buy it. Maybe Paul would agree?


Vinnie

Layman

Hmm. Most communities define themselves by specific beliefs or values. Perhaps you simply "evolved" yourself out of them.

Vorkosigan

I have never heard of Montgomery either. Further, the website itself admits he is obscure, simply by saying he "deserves" to be mentioned alongside Lewis, as if in reality he is not.

Vorkosigan

Vinnie

Perhaps I did. Or perhaps my beliefs were still orthodox at the time if not conservative enough for some people. I concede they were as liberal as an orthodox Christian could get of course.

I honestly don't care to persue this discussion though. Those days are over. But if you want to persue it might be best to take it to email.

At any rate, Orthodoxy bailed on me long before I abandoned it. No amount of apologetix will overturn that fact. It was too difficult trying to tread water alone and the wounds of abandonement are still fresh.

So your expectations will not be met if you expect me to show intellectual charity to my former belief system. Its fair game now. I'm locked, loaded, pissed off and ready to fill my house with trophees.

Vinnie

Layman

I'd be happy to take this to email. I did not realize I had engendered such harsh feelings.

[email protected]

You have been discussing intellectual honesty here. And I think you must realize how far you are from anything fairly described as orthodox Christianity. If it is vengence you want and are intent on taking scalps from your former friends, that does sadden me. It does not particularly frighten me though.

Vinnie

Layman, I have no ill will towards you. I'm more pissed at orthodoxy in general than anyone specific.

Yes I am, now. Happily too since the cognitive dissonance is all gone!

Don't flatter yourself. I don't go trolling for little fish and modernity is doing a good enough job anyways.

Of course it doesn't since you believe the facts support Orthodoxy.

Vinnie

Layman

Somehow these two statements appear to be in some tension.

Well, at least you give me the benefit of sincerity.

In any event, vengence against a particular belief system will undoubtedly involve vengence against the little fish. Why else play out this drama on these boards?

Haran

Vinnie, I'd like to talk some more on this privately, so I've emailed you. I know I'm not going to convince you to turn back to Christianity, but I'd just like to understand more about where you're coming from with some of your comments.