Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 10-27-2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

...but that is exactly where all the evidence points to. A historical man...

Your claim is utterly erroneous there is NO credible evidence at all for any man named Jesus of Nazareth.

1. The Pauline writer a supposed contemporary of King Aretas c 37-41 CE identified no-one as Jesus of Nazareth. See 2 Cor. 11.32

2. The same Pauline writer claimed his Jesus was NOT a human being. See Galatians 1.

3. The Pauline writer argued that he did not get his Gospel from a human being. Galatians 1

4. The Pauline writer claimed Jesus resurrected and was seen of him. See 1 Cor.15.

5. The Pauline writer claimed his Jesus was Revealed to him by God. Galatians 1

6. No author of the NT claimed they saw Jesus before the resurrection.

7. The preaching and teaching of the Gospels was authorised by a non-historical mythological resurrected Jesus. Mark 16.

8. In Acts, the Jesus cult was started when the Holy Ghost came to earth like a mighty rushing wind. Acts 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

...there is no real mythology of the time that come anywhere close to what is left within the jesus legend.

You seem to post absolute BS. Please get familiar with Greek and Roman mythology.

Over 1800 years ago, Justin Martyr and Trypho admitted that the Jesus story was like Greek and Roman mythology.

Dialogue with Trypho

Quote:

.. Moreover, in the fables of those who are called Greeks, it is written that Perseus was begotten of Danae, who was a virgin...

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

...Its why mythers are failing, they have no common theme that works without creating more questions then answers. Carrier is about to tick off all the mythers coming out with his hypothesis that will shoot down all the others soundly.

Please, did you not say Jesus was trampled and also claimed he was crucified?? You have demonstrated that your Jesus is a fiction character who was trampled to death and was simultaneously crucified.

By the way, Carrier has soundly "shot down" Ehrman. "Did Jesus Exist?" is regarded as a failure of facts and logic.

Chili · 10-27-2012, 03:10 PM

I would argue that if Jesus is the 'transition [stage] between human and man (and so is the 'insurrectionist by nature'), there must have been a historical Jesus as he is presented in the Gospels. In fact, every 'true Nazarite' will be one unto himself, squaking away like the rest of them there with the only difference that the 'real one' does not go back to Galilee when he is done.

Now notice that Mark's and Matthew's Jesus were a happy to get back to Galillee as if they felt raped by the Romans on Jewish command with "my God my God what did you do to me now!" (and I am not sure if Peter Popoff could put on such a show).

Horatio Parker · 10-27-2012, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

there is no real mythology of the time that come anywhere close to what is left within the jesus legend.

There certainly isn't any if we don't look for it.

The value of MJ is that it opens up new lines of inquiry.

Quote:

Its why mythers are failing, they have no common theme that works without creating more questions then answers. Carrier is about to tick off all the mythers coming out with his hypothesis that will shoot down all the others soundly.

Questions are good. We've had centuries of confident, faith based answers.

andrewcriddle · 10-29-2012, 08:35 AM

With some trepidation I ask whether the fact that Josephus' account of the release of Agrippa from prison is based on the story of Joseph in Genesis (See Agrippa ) indicates that the account is fictional ?

(My trepidation comes from the strong suspicion that some forum members will say that yes the account is fictional. )

Andrew Criddle

outhouse · 10-29-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

With some trepidation I ask whether the fact that Josephus' account of the release of Agrippa from prison is based on the story of Joseph in Genesis (See Agrippa ) indicates that the account is fictional ?

(My trepidation comes from the strong suspicion that some forum members will say that yes the account is fictional. )

Andrew Criddle

fictional it is not.

at best you could research a OT influence in josephus version of release, I havnt researched it. But do know Josephus is said to use multiple sources, as your link points out.

There is overwhelming amount of material for Agrippa

Toto · 10-29-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

With some trepidation I ask whether the fact that Josephus' account of the release of Agrippa from prison is based on the story of Joseph in Genesis (See Agrippa ) indicates that the account is fictional ?

(My trepidation comes from the strong suspicion that some forum members will say that yes the account is fictional. )

Andrew Criddle

I can't view your link -- too many page hits.

It seems to be to Agrippa I: The Last King of Judaea (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Daniel R. Schwartz

There is a US google books link at http://books.google.com/books/about/Agrippa_I.html and also at http://books.google.com/books?id=exBKKcXH_SQC

Using your search terms gives page 34-5 - and this quote

Quote:

But if VAgr's genre is that of the Joseph and Ester novels, then one must register doubts about its historical worth. Note, for example, the other works written in the image of these biblical books: the Testament of Joseph and III Maccabees. These too are fascinating novels, but the historical worth of even the latter, which claims to be historiography, is open to serious doubts.

So it seems the writer of that book does think the account is fictional (which does not make Agrippa fictional)?

Vorkosigan · 10-29-2012, 07:32 PM

The account obviously seems fictional(ized). I think his case looks strong. What's your idea, Andrew?

maryhelena · 10-29-2012, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

With some trepidation I ask whether the fact that Josephus' account of the release of Agrippa from prison is based on the story of Joseph in Genesis (See Agrippa ) indicates that the account is fictional ?

(My trepidation comes from the strong suspicion that some forum members will say that yes the account is fictional. )

Andrew Criddle

Now that is to open up a very big can of worms......

Once one starts thinking about the possibilities that the Josephan story, about Agrippa I being in prison, is pseudo-history - then the Josephan writer has to be put in the dock! What was the Josephan writer up to?

The linking of Agrippa I with the Joseph in Eqypt story does have messianic overtones. As does his story re Agrippa I and the garment of silver that is illuminated by the sun's rays. (the 'star' messianic ideas...) Likewise, the story about Agrippa I rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem. All in all, for the Josephan writer - (a prophetic historian according to two scholarly studies) - Agrippa I is being viewed through a prophetic lens.

Interestingly, to question the Josephan prison story re Agrippa I - is also to question Philo..................

ON THE EMBASSY TO GAIUS

Quote:

You released me when I was bound in chains and iron. Who is there who is ignorant of this? But do not, after having done so, O emperor! bind me in bonds of still greater bitterness: for the chains from which you released me surrounded a part of my body, but those which I am now anticipating are the chains of the soul, which are likely to oppress it wholly and in every part; (325) you abated from me a fear of death, continually suspended over my head; you received me when I was almost dead through fear; you raised me up as it were from the dead. Continue your favour, O master, that your Agrippa may not be driven wholly to forsake life; for I shall appear (if you do not do so) to have been released from bondage, not for the purpose of being saved, but for that of being made to perish in a more conspicuous manner. (326) "You have given me the greatest and most glorious inheritance among mankind, the rank and power of a king, at first over one district, then over another and a more important one, adding to my kingdom the district called Trachonitis and Galilee.

<snip>

And if you have any secret grief or vexation in your mind, do not throw me into prison, like Tiberius, but deliver me from any anticipation of being thrown into prison at any future time; command me at once to be put out of the way. For what advantage would it be to me to live, who place my whole hopes of safety and happiness in your friendship and favour?"

In Slavonic Josephus there is a very interesting mention of Tiberius in connection with Agrippa I. Unfortunately, the google book view no longer seems to work from my side - but here is the quote from my notes:

It's from page 259 - or thereabouts - it starts with Herod (Antipas) and JtB.

Quote:

Hearing this, Herod was enraged and ordered
him to be beaten and thrown out. He, however,
did not cease but wherever he encountered
Herod spoke thus (and) accused him
until he put him in a dungeon.

A short while afterwards
Herod went to Tiberius
so that he might honour his domain
with a royal title.
And Caesar was furious with him
because of his insatiability.
He took away his domain and added it to
Agrippa’s
and banished him to Spain.
together with Herodias.

Was it Tiberius that made Agrippa I a King?? And the whole Gaius story just that - a pseudo-historical - or a prophetic storyline...And, of course, once the Agrippa I prison story is questioned - then the whole Josephan story re Agrippa I has to be questioned...Not the fact of his historical existence - the Herodian coins testify to that - but to the Josephan prophetic storyline regarding this last King of Judea. (and likewise, Philo....)

Josephus’ Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison (or via: amazon.co.uk) H. Leeming (editor) K. Leeming (editor)

The Josephan writer as a prophetic historian:

Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Robert Karl Gnuse.

Prophetic Figures in Late Second Temple Jewish Palestine:The Evidence from Josephus (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Rebecca Gray

andrewcriddle · 10-30-2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Using your search terms gives page 34-5 - and this quote

Quote:

But if VAgr's genre is that of the Joseph and Ester novels, then one must register doubts about its historical worth. Note, for example, the other works written in the image of these biblical books: the Testament of Joseph and III Maccabees. These too are fascinating novels, but the historical worth of even the latter, which claims to be historiography, is open to serious doubts.

So it seems the writer of that book does think the account is fictional (which does not make Agrippa fictional)?

IIUC Daniel Schwartz believes that Josephus used several earlier written sources for his account of Agrippa. One of these VAgr has used the stories of Joseph and Esther in composing its narrative but the other sources show no signs of doing so. Therefore material found only in passages in Josephus based on VAgr are dubious as history. If you accept this (IMO speculative) source-critical analysis then Schwartz's doubts about the historicity of material from VAgr are very reasonable.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 10-30-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

The account obviously seems fictional(ized). I think his case looks strong. What's your idea, Andrew?

I agree that the account in Josephus is partly based on the story of Joseph. (I'm less sure about the use of Esther.)

My point is that if it is generally true that narratives drawing motifs from earlier accounts of earlier events have little or no historical basis, then this has wider implications than the New Testament. Implications that most ancient historians would find problematic.

Andrew Criddle

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10-27-2012, 03:10 PM	#82
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	I would argue that if Jesus is the 'transition [stage] between human and man (and so is the 'insurrectionist by nature'), there must have been a historical Jesus as he is presented in the Gospels. In fact, every 'true Nazarite' will be one unto himself, squaking away like the rest of them there with the only difference that the 'real one' does not go back to Galilee when he is done. Now notice that Mark's and Matthew's Jesus were a happy to get back to Galillee as if they felt raped by the Romans on Jewish command with "my God my God what did you do to me now!" (and I am not sure if Peter Popoff could put on such a show).

10-29-2012, 08:35 AM	#84
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	With some trepidation I ask whether the fact that Josephus' account of the release of Agrippa from prison is based on the story of Joseph in Genesis (See Agrippa ) indicates that the account is fictional ? (My trepidation comes from the strong suspicion that some forum members will say that yes the account is fictional. ) Andrew Criddle

10-29-2012, 07:32 PM	#87
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	The account obviously seems fictional(ized). I think his case looks strong. What's your idea, Andrew?

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