Toto

This was Catholic doctrine. According to Uta Ranke-Heineman (or via: amazon.co.uk) it originated with the gnostics, but orthodox Christians embraced it for centuries.

Philo and Josephus were not Christians. How does bestiality or any of this relate to anything in this thread so far? Is this another of your little diversions?

Back Again

It hurts you when your gay son doesn't produce an heir to inherit the birthright. It hurts when you can't marry your gay son to the daughter of your neighbor that has more goats than you do. It also hurts when your gay son's lover makes a move on your property and holdings. It's much safer to stone him to death and then embrace your straight son who plays by the rules. There's also the independent but correlating issue of effeminacy. You don't want to hand your empire over to a man that you perceive to act like a woman. You have to put on your bronze age goat-herder glasses to understand this. Right or wrong, the "sins" of today were pragmatic guidelines in the past.

andrewcriddle

Gnostics were a very very varied group, but on the whole they did not regard producing children as a justification for sex. Their bleak view of the world made them dubious about increasing its inhabitants.

Andrew Criddle

arnoldo

So you agree that it originated with the gnostics.
True, however they accurately portray how hubris is related toward same sex relations. The Apostle Paul also relates the relevance of hubris towards sexual conduct in 1 Corinthians 5:1-2

arnoldo

Point taken.

Toto

Uta Ranke-Heineman agrees.

This is not the place to discuss the psychology of sexual attraction, but I don't think that any evidence-based modern reseacher would use the word "accurate" for these 2000 year old prejudices from another culture and place.

More accurately, Paul fulminates against one example of sexual immorality (not homosexuality) and then accuses his audience of pride and arrogance. He does not show any relationship between hubris and same sex relations.

Do you actually read or understand these sources that you quote? Is it all just a stream of consciousness?

Nero's Boot

.....how is it "arrogance" or "hubris" I and the man I love have passionate entirely consensual sex?

--if that's all it takes, then your faith is more warped than I thought NB

arnoldo

Josephus writes concerning hubris in relation to many issues not just sexual. Besides maybe J. Boswell was correct that the term "arsenokoitai" as used in Paul's writings refered to temple prostitutes rather than same sex conduct.

arnoldo

The source of attributing some elements of hubris to same sex relations is Josephus. See page 244 of Greek Literature: Greek literature in the Roman period and in late antiquity By Gregory Nagy

Roger Pearse

And thieves. And adulterers. And perverts, liars, cheats, swindlers. You forgot to weep over rapists, murderers, child abusers....

The certainty with which people make something manufactured 10 years ago into a eternal verity is pretty chilling. Worse is the hate displayed to any who fail to conform.

Still, if we didn't know that unnatural vice was an evil, we could find out by the type of arguments used to defend it. The best thing is to imagine some other evil, and see if the same arguments could be used to "justify" it. If they can, they're specious.