Qiwi

...and would you by any chance happen to be a member of this 'elite group' Chris?

rlogan

I don't Vork.

I had a detailed response that I lost when my server disconnected. Arg!

Got to work now, but I'll reconstruct it later today.

Chris Weimer

Ad hominems are not appreciated.

Amaleq13

They are also not allowed according to the rules but I didn't think that was his intent. I thought he was asking if you were a Christian whose beliefs were consistent with those expressed in GTh.

Chris Weimer

I thought I already outlined ealier that I like Thomas so much that if Christianity was consisted of those teachings that I would convert

In case you missed that again, no, I'm not Christian, but the question is irrelevant to the controversy of Thomas being dependent or not on the other synoptics.

rlogan

Neither do I.

Complete agreement.

Eusebius tells us of oral traditions not written. John tells us that there were so many traditions and things he said or did that the whole world could not contain the books to be written on it.

Obviously with 2-3% literacy there will be oral traditions dominating transmission from one generation to the next. And I don't mean Jesus. I mean everything under the sun, some of which can be later transferred to a Jesus.

The origins of the Jesus paradigms are murky and speculative. But once something was afoot it is easy to see folk wisdom simply prefaced with "Jesus Said". Take the big fish (duh). Don't sew an old patch on new clothes (duh). Etc.

I don't see how you can distinguish between these two:

1) Thomas collecting common sayings independent of Mark - ones that will appear in Mark for basically the same reason

2) Thomas excising some from Mark (and adding in others not contained in mark).



I'll try again to make my point because you missed it. Please bear with me. Many historical events are subsequently enshrined in folk sayings. No narrative is necessary. Crossing the Rubicon. Meeting your Waterloo. Rube Goldburg contraptions. Ad infinitum. The same is true with mythical narratives. Achyllles heel. Cupid's arrow. Whatever.

There is quite a bit of potential material in the narratives to condense into a saying, and some of it has. A Judas Escariot. Doubting Thomas.

If I were shown narrative material from Mark that resulted in condensed sayings in Thomas then I would be convinced of the relative dating you are proposing.

Well, at least I hope I made my point clearer.

spin

Why don't you go the whole hog, Judas Escargot, and be done. He was just a shell of a man anyway, a slime ball who left a trail wherever he went.


pnis

Qiwi

Apologies....I misunderstood your post....

rlogan

How embarassing I ment Judes Oscariet.