Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 02-27-2013, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Heya Shesh, have a look at this blog and tell me what you think. It may be that the name of Jesus is in nomina sacra form...

OK, you asked for it

I don't think the inscription originally had anything to do with 'Jezuz', 'christ' or 'Christianity' as we now know it.

The Ιη being the masculinized variant form of the ΙΣ was originally used of the Hellenic mythical deity Apollo.

Thus I read this inscriptian as a transitional rendering where the ancient Hellenic nomina sacra of 'Apollo the Good Shepherd' is now being applied to an equally mythological fictional 'Iesu the Good' (Shepherd)

_ IF the congregants of that time were even aware of there being any distinction at all, with no evidence of any formal gospels or doctrine being existant at that early date.

P.S. I tried to provide a link to Apollo pictures but couldn't get it to work.
Copy and paste APOLLO THE GOOD SHEPHERD to your browser and there will be plenty of pre-christian examples to be found.

.

jakejonesiv · 02-27-2013, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Heya Shesh, have a look at this blog and tell me what you think. It may be that the name of Jesus is in nomina sacra form...

OK, you asked for it

I don't think the inscription originally had anything to do with 'Jezuz', 'christ' or 'Christianity' as we now know it.

The Ιη being the masculinized variant form of the ΙΣ was originally used of the Hellenic mythical deity Apollo.

Thus I read this inscriptian as a transitional rendering where the ancient Hellenic nomina sacra of 'Apollo the Good Shepherd' is now being applied to an equally mythological fictional 'Iesu the Good' (Shepherd)

_ IF the congregants of that time were even aware of there being any distinction at all, with no evidence of any formal gospels or doctrine being existant at that early date.

P.S. I tried to provide a link to Apollo pictures but couldn't get it to work.
Copy and paste APOLLO THE GOOD SHEPHERD to your browser and there will be plenty of pre-christian examples to be found.

.

Here, Jesus is an Apollo-like Good Shepard, a youth in Roman garb. Apollo was the Greek god of the sun and the ideal of manly beauty.
http://tinyurl.com/c3zap

Jake Jones

Clivedurdle · 02-28-2013, 12:25 AM

As we have started discussing sheep, did anyone ever find a picture of a lamb with a human head on a cross?

http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives...hlight=brading

Quote:

I think I may have found what you were thinking of. It is on an illustration between pages 160 & 161 in Antiquity Unveiled By Jonathan M Roberts, 1894:
The above engraving Of the lamb nailed to the cross represents the Christian symbol prior to 680 A. D., though this fact is not generally known At the Sixth Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in that year, it was ordained that in place of the lamb, the figure of a man should be portrayed on the cross. This has been known and recognized since that time as the Christian symbol. After the decree of the council m 680 A. D., the representation and worship of the lamb on the cross was prohibited, and that of the man was substituted in its place. By these items of history, we learn how and at what period the story of the so-called crucifixion of Christ was formulated. (See communication of Constantinus Pogonatus, Page 160). The decree of the council prohibiting the representation and worship of the lamb as the Christian symbol, as translated from the Latin, is as follows:

"In certain representations of the images of the saints, a lamb is portrayed, etc. We, therefore accepting the old forms and shadows as signs of the truth and as traditional symbols of the church, prefer Grace and Truth, which we accept as the fulfillment of the law. So, that which is perfect, let us place in pictures, even before the eyes of all. We have decreed that that Lamb, which taketh away the sins of the world, Christ our God, ought to be portrayed henceforth in human form in place of the Lamb."—In the Roma Sotteranea of Antonio Bosio Dell, concerning the image of Christ under the figure of a lamb."
(Sorry, could not paste the image directly into the message and cannot find it online)

http://books.google.com/books?id=--8...0image&f=false

The full title might illustrate the wording: "Ancient voices from the spirit realms Disclose the most starteling revelations Proving Christianity to be of Heathen Origins."

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobar

From the Jesus Never Existed website-

Quote:

At the close of the 8th century, Pope Hadrian I (772-795) confirmed the decrees of the 6th Synod of Constantinople held almost a century earlier and commanded that thereafter "the figure of a man should take the place of a lamb on the cross."

It took Christianity eight centuries to develop the ubiquitous symbol of its suffering Savior.

For 800 years, its Christ on the cross had been a lamb.

But if a real flesh and blood Jesus had actually been crucified, why was his place on the cross so long usurped by a lamb?

I don't want to start yet another thread on mythicism here. Instead, I want to find some specific images, which I recall seeing in this forum several years ago, and can't find now.

I distinctly remember seeing pictures of 2 different crucifixes, both of which had a man's body with the head of a lamb as the crucified savior.

There are several images I've found where a lamb is shown on the cross:

These aren't what I'm looking for. The ones I recall were more like the animal-headed Egyptian representations of some of their gods, for instance Bast, or Anubis.

Might anyone here know about these images?

mountainman · 02-28-2013, 01:24 AM

It's at page 160 in this book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

As we have started discussing sheep, did anyone ever find a picture of a lamb with a human head on a cross?

http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives...hlight=brading

Quote:

I think I may have found what you were thinking of. It is on an illustration between pages 160 & 161 in Antiquity Unveiled By Jonathan M Roberts, 1894:
The above engraving Of the lamb nailed to the cross represents the Christian symbol prior to 680 A. D., though this fact is not generally known At the Sixth Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in that year, it was ordained that in place of the lamb, the figure of a man should be portrayed on the cross. This has been known and recognized since that time as the Christian symbol. After the decree of the council m 680 A. D., the representation and worship of the lamb on the cross was prohibited, and that of the man was substituted in its place. By these items of history, we learn how and at what period the story of the so-called crucifixion of Christ was formulated. (See communication of Constantinus Pogonatus, Page 160). The decree of the council prohibiting the representation and worship of the lamb as the Christian symbol, as translated from the Latin, is as follows:

"In certain representations of the images of the saints, a lamb is portrayed, etc. We, therefore accepting the old forms and shadows as signs of the truth and as traditional symbols of the church, prefer Grace and Truth, which we accept as the fulfillment of the law. So, that which is perfect, let us place in pictures, even before the eyes of all. We have decreed that that Lamb, which taketh away the sins of the world, Christ our God, ought to be portrayed henceforth in human form in place of the Lamb."—In the Roma Sotteranea of Antonio Bosio Dell, concerning the image of Christ under the figure of a lamb."
(Sorry, could not paste the image directly into the message and cannot find it online)

http://books.google.com/books?id=--8...esult&resnum=9

The full title might illustrate the wording: "Ancient voices from the spirit realms Disclose the most starteling revelations Proving Christianity to be of Heathen Origins."

DCH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobar
From the Jesus Never Existed website-
Quote:
At the close of the 8th century, Pope Hadrian I (772-795) confirmed the decrees of the 6th Synod of Constantinople held almost a century earlier and commanded that thereafter "the figure of a man should take the place of a lamb on the cross."

It took Christianity eight centuries to develop the ubiquitous symbol of its suffering Savior.

For 800 years, its Christ on the cross had been a lamb.

But if a real flesh and blood Jesus had actually been crucified, why was his place on the cross so long usurped by a lamb?
I don't want to start yet another thread on mythicism here. Instead, I want to find some specific images, which I recall seeing in this forum several years ago, and can't find now.

I distinctly remember seeing pictures of 2 different crucifixes, both of which had a man's body with the head of a lamb as the crucified savior.

There are several images I've found where a lamb is shown on the cross:

These aren't what I'm looking for. The ones I recall were more like the animal-headed Egyptian representations of some of their gods, for instance Bast, or Anubis.

Might anyone here know about these images?

wordy · 02-28-2013, 03:29 AM

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html

Apollo do really look impressive and if that statue
existed before Jesus then why not

what is it about Apollo then that made him fail as myth?
Could not some Neo-Pagan group resurrect him now.

Clivedurdle · 02-28-2013, 07:27 AM

P160 has a lamb on a cross, not a chimera, a lamb with a human head.

Sheshbazzar · 02-28-2013, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

what is it about Apollo then that made him fail as myth?
Could not some Neo-Pagan group resurrect him now.

Apollo never did fail as a myth, his cult just invented him a new identity, with an alias robbed off a dead Hebrew.
Still the 'Son of God', still 'The Good Shepherd', still 'The Saviour' and the 'Great Physician', just going forward under an alias cribbed from the religion of the Hebrews, so that his cult could lay a claim to the well known religious texts of the Hebrews as being their heritage. Mafia 'religion' by means of theft, extortion, murder and intrigue.

No Neo-Pagan group ever need resurrect him, and the effort would be worthless, as organized christianity has long since 'resurrected' him, and have continued most of the pagan philosophy, ideas, tropes, doctrines, and practices under the XC alias.

Sheshbazzar · 02-28-2013, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

P160 has a lamb on a cross, not a chimera, a lamb with a human head.

I'm certain I have seen this chimera on a crucifix illustrated before in ancient texts, but after consulting thousands of such, I no longer have any idea of where.
There is of course the pagan pattern in 'Pan', the man-goat that appeared in many different cult contexts in a wide variety of Hellenistic cults, making it extremely likely that there would have been ancient portrayals of Pan crucified.
(such likely latter sought out and destroyed by catholic christianity as being idolatrous and 'heretical' images)

'Pan' is an extremely interesting god character. Even the name 'Pan' signifies 'ALL', and there is perhaps not an attribute of deity that has not been ascribed to 'Pan' at some time and place.
'Pan' is still in everyday use as a proper term for 'God' in some European languages. And following the conventions of these languages, 'Jezus' is Pan.

.

wordy · 02-28-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

what is it about Apollo then that made him fail as myth?
Could not some Neo-Pagan group resurrect him now.

Apollo never did fail as a myth, his cult just invented him a new identity, with an alias robbed off a dead Hebrew.
Still the 'Son of God', still 'The Good Shepherd', still 'The Saviour' and the 'Great Physician', just going forward under an alias cribbed from the religion of the Hebrews, so that his cult could lay a claim to the well known religious texts of the Hebrews as being their heritage. Mafia 'religion' by means of theft, extortion, murder and intrigue.

No Neo-Pagan group ever need resurrect him, and the effort would be worthless, as organized christianity has long since 'resurrected' him, and have continued most of the pagan philosophy, ideas, tropes, doctrines, and practices under the XC alias.

I know too little to get if that is as you say or just a wild interpretation
but why not. the whole thing is so unlikely so it can be based on Apollo
I don't mind that at all.

But I doubt any Christian would dare to admit it to be true, would they

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo
Apollo is one of the most important and complex of the Olympian deities in ancient Greek and Roman religion, Greek and Roman mythology, and Greco–Roman Neopaganism.

...Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun,
truth and prophecy, healing, plague, music, poetry, and more.

Apollo ... has a twin sister, the chaste huntress Artemis.
Artemis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis
Artemis was one of the most widely venerated of the Ancient Greek deities.
Her Roman equivalent is Diana.

Some scholars[1] believe that the name and indeed the goddess herself
was originally pre-Greek. ...

In the classical period of Greek mythology, Artemis was often described as the daughter of Zeus and Leto, and the twin sister of Apollo.
She was the Hellenic goddess of the hunt, wild animals, wilderness, childbirth,
virginity and protector of young girls, bringing and relieving disease in women;

Christians could learn from the Greeks and let God be twins both man and woman that way their discrimination against women could ease up.

Sheshbazzar · 02-28-2013, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

I know too little to get if that is as you say or just a wild interpretation
but why not. the whole thing is so unlikely so it can be based on Apollo

I wouldn't say that Jezus is specifically based on Apollo.

Jezus as we now have him is a highly syncretized Hellenistic amalgamation of the attributes of many ancient gods.
A something for everyone multi-cultural god figure.
His mystical association with the fish acronym ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthys) and with fish and 'fishermen' in the tropes in the gospels easily tied him into ancient cultural associations of the maritime cults from Dagon to Poseidon. His retreating into faraway mountains to the popular mythos of Pan, his turning water into wine for a wedding feast relates him to the god Bacchus.
There are threads drawn from hundreds of ancient sources woven into that whole cloth that makes up the Jezus we read about within the NT writings.
So no, Jezus is not a copy of any particular one god but a pastiche of attributes and the miraculous acts of them all.

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02-28-2013, 03:29 AM	#105
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html Apollo do really look impressive and if that statue existed before Jesus then why not what is it about Apollo then that made him fail as myth? Could not some Neo-Pagan group resurrect him now.

02-28-2013, 07:27 AM	#106
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	P160 has a lamb on a cross, not a chimera, a lamb with a human head.

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