archibald

Yes, but why would he refer specifically to the third heaven once there only? Wouldn't you think that he would use the phrase in relation to his central character's defining moment too?

But............isn't this after he's dead?

archibald

Plenty of evidence? I wasn't aware that he had plenty of evidence, and I am not aware of any professional Classical historians or philosophers agreeing that he is weilding the concepts (of sublunar realms) in consistency with analogous narratives.

Kapyong

Gday archibald,

Well, I said "plenty of evidence and argument".
Admittedly there's more argument than evidence :-)

Here are some examples of spiritual references in the early epistles (the spiritual Jesus is found in various early works - Paul, deutero-Paul, Hebrews.)

1 Corinthians 15:44b-49

If there is (such a thing as) a natural/physical body, there is also a spiritual (body). And so it is written: “The first man, Adam, was made to be a living soul”; the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

Here Paul says that Jesus (the 2nd Adam) was made a life-giving spirit.

Paul contrasts Adam with Jesus :
* Adam = earthly, out of earth,
* Christ = spiritual, out of heaven

2 Cor 11:4 - the source of all these competing messages and claims to legitimacy:

For if someone comes who proclaims another Jesus . . . if you receive a spirit different from the spirit already given to you, or a gospel different from the gospel you have already accepted . . .

How might one "proclaim another Jesus" ?
By "receiv[ing] a spirit different from the spirit already given to you"
The SOURCE for Jesus is spiritual revelation.


Romans 16:25-27

Glory be to God who has strengthened you, through my gospel and proclamation about Jesus Christ, through his [God’s] revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages, now disclosed and made known through the prophetic writings at the command of the eternal God that all nations might obey through faith—to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ. Amen.

[Earl Doherty's trans.]

Paul's gospel about Jesus comes from revelation and through scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8

There is no gift you lack, while you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you till the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Believers await the REVEALING of Jesus - no historical Jesus there.

Philippians 3:10

All I care for is to know Christ, to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings

Really? Why does he show NO interest in Calvary etc.?
But he shows a lot of interest in spiritual issues.

1 Corinthians 12:28

And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, etc.

No historical Jesus there.

Galatians 1:11-12

For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul's Gospel about Jesus comes from revelation OF Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:19-23

. . . They (God’s resources and power) are measured by his strength and the might which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead, when he enthroned him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all government and authority, all power and dominion, and any title of sovereignty that can be named, not only in this age but in the age to come. 22He put everything in subjection beneath his feet, and appointed him as supreme head to the church, 23which is his body and as such holds within it the fullness of him who himself receives the entire fullness of God.

Here, Jesus Christ is :
* a being enthroned in heaven
* an eternal being
* far above all earthly authority
* above any title
* above any power and dominion
* with everything subject to him

What's NOT mentioned?
Anything earthly or historical about that Jesus Christ god-being.

The Jesus here is a supremely powerful spiritual being. But there is NO connection to an earthly Jesus of Nazareth. There is no historical Jesus in sight here at all. And there is no explanation of this bizarre lifting of a crucified criminal to a supreme god, no mention of such an equation at all. The writer of Ephesians seems to have no idea that anyone considered Jesus historical.

An esoteric poem Col. 1:15-20, refers to Jesus as the Image of the hidden God, the first emanation :

the Image of the invisible God,
the first -born of Heaven,
for in him all things were created,
in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions,
principalities or authorities,
all things were created through him and for him
he is before all things,
and in him all things hold together,
he is the Head of the Body, the church,
he is the beginning,
the first born from the dead,
that in all he might be first,
for in him was the Pleroma,
and through him to reconcile to himself all things,
whether on earth or in heaven,
making peace by the blood of his cross .

Ephesians 3:4-6 (+7-11)

In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to God’s holy apostles and prophets through the spirit, that through the gospel the Gentiles are to be fellow heirs and fellow members of the promise in Christ Jesus. . . .

So what IS the mystery ?
Colossians 1:25-27

I have become (the church’s) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness, the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery,
which is :
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

That's THE central mystery - Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Whatever that is - it's some sort of spiritual concept, clearly nothing historical.


Colossians 2:8-10

Do not let your mind be captured by hollow and delusive speculations, based on traditions of man (man-made teachings) and centered on the elemental spirits of the world and not on Christ. For it is in Christ that the complete being of the Godhead dwells embodied, and in him you have been brought to completion. Every power and authority in the universe is subject to him as Head.

Every power and authority in the UNIVERSE is subject to him as Head!
That's a powerful deity, not a historical person.


Hebrews 1:1

When in former times God spoke to our forefathers, he spoke in fragmentary and varied fashion through the prophets. But in this final age (literally, these last days) he has spoken to us in the Son (en huio), whom he has made heir to the whole universe, and through whom he created all orders of existence: the Son who is the effulgence of God’s splendor and the stamp of God’s very being, and sustains the universe by his word of power. When he had brought about the purgation of sins, he took his seat at the right hand of Majesty on high, raised as far above the angels as the title he has inherited is superior to theirs.

A divine being deity, far above the angels.

9:24 For Christ has entered . . . heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. Nor is he there to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the sanctuary year by year with blood not his own. If this were so, he would have needed to suffer many times since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the completion of the ages to abolish sin by his sacrifice.

Christ entered heaven to perform his heavenly sacrifice (once).


There are many references which show Jesus was seen as a heavenly being.
There are a few which MAY refer to an earthly Jesus.
There are NONE which clearly show an earthly Jesus.

References to HUMAN attributes do NOT make a historical Jesus - but TedM and MCalavera keep making this mistake. Yes, Jesus had a human side - like many other heavenly or fictional or spiritual beings.

But human does NOT mean historical. And it's no good saying that's just ONE part of the argument, because that part of the argument is broken.

Listing 92 references is no good if they don't clearly refer to a historical Jesus - at best we have 3-4 ambiguous claims which MIGHT refer to a historical Jesus.


K.

GakuseiDon

Can you name any other heavenly being who was thought by people back then who had a human side, e.g. along the lines of "seed of David", "from the tribe of Judah", "came from the Israelites", but was thought by them to have never been on earth?

archibald

Yes, but Hebrews (as has been pointed out) says he entered this heaven (note singular. No mention of tiers) does it not?

spin

So your comment about there being no evidence is based on your knowing nothing of the evidence.

archibald

Greetings Kapyong, :]

In all of the above, I do not see anything that is inconsistent with the idea that Paul thought Jesus came to earth. Of course he talks mainly of a spiritual Jesus, but Jesus was already 'gone' before Paul arrived on the scene and he never met him, and his material is based on supposed contact with his spirit! :]

You are right. Those 92 references only 'seem' to refer to an earthly/human Jesus. Some more so than others. I do not know why this is not a decent indicator that Paul was likely referring to an earthly Jesus.

The idea that he did so, purely for his theology is a bit of a hoop, especially given that he (Paul) appears (yes I know there are other theories) to be writing about someone in the relatively recent past.

So, we have, on the face of it, someone who seems to repeatedly refer to an 'earthling', and no indication that the earthling lived in the dim and distant past. On the contrary, suggestions that this earthling brought a message about resurrection of those still living.

:huh:

MCalavera

Kapyong, that's the problem. All you have are Doherty's interpretations going for you. Any clever guy can force his own interpretations to fit into the Scriptures. But it doesn't mean they're right and that they're backed up by good evidence.

I just found about a site by Bernard Muller. Don't know much about the guy, but it's a very interesting site. Here's the link to a response he made to Doherty's work, showing how Doherty added his speculations to whatever evidence he used for his theory and treating "his speculations" + "evidence" as "better evidence" ... which is not a valid equation scholarly speaking.

http://historical-jesus.info/djp1.html

Kapyong

Gday archibald,

Thanks for your reply :-)

But like I keep saying - human does not mean historical or earthly.

Yes, I agree that Paul apparently refers to a being with human characteristics. Paul's Jesus was a spiritual being who had a human side.

Of course mythical or spiritual (or fictional) beings can have a human side. Adam and Eve are human, but not historical. Odysseus is human but not historical. John Frum too, and Sherlock Holmes, and Hercules and Apuleis and Osiris and Attis and Iasion and Luke Skywalker.

But I keep seeing human being confused with earthly/historical - even after I point out the difference several times.

I am arguing that Paul saw Jesus as heavenly being who descended into the realm of flesh - and who had a human 'side' - crucial for his role in being crucified in the Air Beneath the Moon by the Prince of Power in the Air.

So pointing out yet again that Paul's Jesus had human characteristics is not actually arguing against my theory, nor does it argue for an earthly/historical Jesus.

I look forward to that joyous day when that point is grasped.

93 references that 'seem' to refer to a 'human' mean ZERO in the face of :
* so many that refer to a spiritual being.
* and so few that (at best) imply an earthly Jesus


K.

Kapyong

Gday,

Pretty much every ancient Greek God had a human side - they had human desires and human motives. Gods of other ancient cultures were similar. Even Aboriginal Australian tell stories of gods beings who do very human like things and have human like emotions.

So too did Jehovah in the J source - he walked in Eden, he made clothes for Adam and Eve. Clearly a heavenly being, clearly has a human side.

So too did angels who acted on earth such as those lustful angels who visited Job - how much more heavenly can an angel be? How much more earthly can sexual desire be?

Why did you bowl me up such a sitter Don?

Ah - there's the sting in the tail !
Way to set up an impossible goal.

My response is :
Where can you show that Paul specifically claimed Jesus lived in Jerusalem in the 1st decades and had a mother called Mary and a father called Joseph?
Of course you cannot. Nor can I meet your specific challenge.


Spiritual beings having a human side = common and obvious.

But Paul is one of a kind, and his Jesus is not at all common and obvious.


K.