Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-21-2013, 11:53 AM

Only in your warped imagination could Constantine's reference to the pre-existent gospel narrative be turned around as proof that 'it all comes from Constantine.'

mountainman · 02-21-2013, 11:59 AM

You posed the OP. I provided Fox's assessment. What's ur problem?

stephan huller · 02-21-2013, 12:03 PM

so you're saying Fox thought Constantine invented this association with the dove?

semiopen · 02-21-2013, 12:05 PM

There is an attempt to say the Dove thing originates in Judaism, reminiscent of Duvi.

Here is a strange one from some of your transvestite friends at Donmeh West.

The Hidden Structures of Water

The logic is based on a Rashi which is not entirely convincing

Quote:

Now, of these opening words of Scripture, Rashi brings down this:

"The throne of glory stands suspended in the air, and hovers over the face of the waters, by the breath of the mouth of the Holy One, Blessed Be He, and at his command, like a dove which hovers over the nest." (Bereshit 1:1-2)

Further down the following comment woke me up

Quote:

"If a gentile was converted to Judaism [by ritual immersion in water].....they are like a newborn child: and every consanguineous relative that they had originally, while a gentile, is no longer a relation of theirs at all. Hence, they are allowed to marry them, even if they are their mother or sister -- this by the law of the Torah. (Sefer HaHinnuch, Feldheim Edition, Vol. 1, Part 2, p. 375)

Not sure what this has to do with doves.

Seeing as how Noah sent out the doves, there has to be some Kabbalistic significance.

Recently, I wondered why chickens aren't mentioned in the bible (a few times in the NT I think). There is a guy at Shul who I associate with asking idiotic questions who thought this was the silliest question he ever heard.

Still, the sacrifice of doves appears in Leviticus, although that was probably added after, but chickens are never mentioned. It turns out that chickens weren't domesticated in the Middle East until about 800 BCE. This was probably before most of the bible was written so you'd think chickens might appear anachronistically but they don't. It appears that there might be a Jewish aversion to chickens. The sages don't appear to grock domestication.

Anyway, interesting that the eating of doves has died out.

mountainman · 02-21-2013, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

so you're saying Fox thought Constantine invented this association with the dove?

That's about it. From my notes here, Fox summarises as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOX p.651

"Has there ever been such a sequence of misplaced discoveries in a christian sermon,
let alone in a speech at the end of a Christian synod?

outhouse · 02-21-2013, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

What exactly are you pointing to in the article?

From the link I provided.

The origins of the dove in the NT.

Quote:

doves could be understood as embodiment (epiphany) of a divinity

Doves are a sign of divinity. Hellenism reaches further then the OT my friend.

stephan huller · 02-21-2013, 01:06 PM

But what kind of reference is that? To have a meaningful discussion you can't just pick something out of a Sears catalog. Please provide a substantial reference.

stephan huller · 02-21-2013, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOX p.651

"Has there ever been such a sequence of misplaced discoveries in a christian sermon,
let alone in a speech at the end of a Christian synod?

This is even more meaningless. Please stop posting this nonsense. Fox does not support your lunacy.

Toto · 02-21-2013, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

so you're saying Fox thought Constantine invented this association with the dove?

That's about it. From my notes here, Fox summarises as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOX p.651

"Has there ever been such a sequence of misplaced discoveries in a christian sermon, let alone in a speech at the end of a Christian synod?

The full text is not available on the web, but it appears that Fox is saying that Constantine's identification of this dove with the dove in the Noah's ark story is unique.

stephan huller · 02-21-2013, 01:52 PM

But what does this have to do with the OP - 'where did the idea of the Holy Spirit Descending as a Dove come from? Are we to seriously suggest that it came from Constantine?

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02-21-2013, 11:53 AM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Only in your warped imagination could Constantine's reference to the pre-existent gospel narrative be turned around as proof that 'it all comes from Constantine.'

02-21-2013, 11:59 AM	#12
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	You posed the OP. I provided Fox's assessment. What's ur problem?

02-21-2013, 12:03 PM	#13
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	so you're saying Fox thought Constantine invented this association with the dove?

02-21-2013, 01:06 PM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But what kind of reference is that? To have a meaningful discussion you can't just pick something out of a Sears catalog. Please provide a substantial reference.

02-21-2013, 01:52 PM	#20
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But what does this have to do with the OP - 'where did the idea of the Holy Spirit Descending as a Dove come from? Are we to seriously suggest that it came from Constantine?

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