Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 11-20-2011, 01:43 AM

BTW Toto

I saw Puss and Boots too. I liked it but then again my mind is with my five year old most of the time.

Adam · 11-20-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Joseph Tyson has many scholarly publications, I learned from the July 2008 review In Catholic Biblical Quarterly by David M. Scholer of his Marcion and LUke-Acts. However, his severely late dates are based solely on Knox and Pervo. Dieter Roth shot down Knox, so how good is Pervo?

It is not clear to me that Dieter Roth "shot down" Knox. I haven't read through everything, but it appears that the most that Roth established was that there was no consensus of earlier German scholars on a late date for Acts.

Richard Pervo has devoted his scholarly life to Acts. He dates it to about 110 CE, which is not a severely late date - I think other scholars have dated it to 150 CE or later.

Great. Seems that Tyson then could rely on Pervo. Does Pervo also date Marcion early enough that a 110 CE date for Acts can help Tyson?
Dieter Roth established that neither Knox nor Tyson read Hilgenfeld's 253 page 1852 supposed resolution. My guess is that John Knox could never obtain that item for his 1942 book, and all that he did obtain was turned over to Tyson. More recently Klinghardt did get access to it, but misrepresented it, according to Roth.

Toto · 11-20-2011, 08:53 AM

I don't think that Pervo has written anything on Marcion.

DCHindley · 12-16-2011, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Well, my delicate sensibilities won out and I spent many an hour yesterday evening and early this morning conjuring up a short list of passages which we have any certainty were included, or excluded, from Marcion's version of Galatians, based on the complaints of the proto-orthodox.

Here they are, chapter by chapter, for your hungry eyes to behold. I will boldly assert that these are the ONLY things that we can pretend to know about his version of Galatians, as I have edited out any passages that are included in the Marcionite versions of Mahar or von Manen, that do not have direct support from an early writer.

Chapter 1

Chapter 2

Chapter 3

Chapter 4

Chapter 5

Chapter 6

To make these lists easier to interpret, here are the sources indicated in the notes:

Source:	Author	Work	Section	Attributed to	Language	Date
(Ad.) Dial. II.5.25	Anonymous	Dialogue	II.5.25	Adamantius	Greek Original	early 4th cent
(Ad.) Dial. II.5.30	Anonymous	Dialogue	II.5.30	Adamantius	Greek Original	early 4th cent
(Ad.) Dial. IV.15.25/26	Anonymous	Dialogue	IV.15.25,26	Adamantius	Greek Original	early 4th cent
(Ad.) Dial. V.22.13-15	Anonymous	Dialogue	V.22.13-15	Adamantius	Greek Original	early 4th cent
(Ad.) Dial. V.22.15-17	Anonymous	Dialogue	V.22.15-17	Adamantius	Greek Original	early 4th cent
(Meg.) Dial. I.27.12	Anonymous	Dialogue	IV.15.25,26	Megethius	Greek Original	early 4th cent
(Meg.) Dial. I.6.11-13	Anonymous	Dialogue	I.6.11-13	Megethius	Greek Original	early 4th cent
(Meg.) Dial. I.6.11-13 (Rufin)	Anonymous	Dialogue	I.6.11-13	Megethius	Latin (tr. by Rufinus)	mid 4th cent
(Meg.) Dial. I.6.7/8	Anonymous	Dialogue	I.6.7,8	Megethius	Greek Original	early 4th cent
Chrysostom, On the Epistle to the Galatians	Chrysostom	Comm on Galatians	N/S	Marcion/ites	Greek	late 4th cent
Ephraem (Comm. in Epistolas d. Paul)	Ephraem	Homilies on Epistles of Paul	N/S	Marcion/ites	Syriac	mid 4th cent
Epiphanius, Adv. Haer. 42	Epiphanius	Panarion	42	Marcion/ites	Greek	mid 4th cent
Eznik, De Deo s.413.288	Eznik	On God/Refutation of the Sects	413.288	Marcion/ites	Syriac	mid 5th cent
Origen (by Hieronymus, Commentary to Galatians)	Origen	Comm on Galatians	N/S	Marcion/ites	Latin (tr. By Jerome)	mid 4th cent
Origen, (Comm. in John, V.)	Origen	Comm on John	V	Marcion/ites	Greek Original	early 3rd cent
Tert., AM V.1	Tertullian	Against Marcion	V.1	Marcion/ites	Latin Original	late 2nd/early 3rd cent
Tert., AM V.2	Tertullian	Against Marcion	V.2	Marcion/ites	Latin Original	late 2nd/early 3rd cent
Tert., AM V.3	Tertullian	Against Marcion	V.3	Marcion/ites	Latin Original	late 2nd/early 3rd cent
Tert., AM V.4	Tertullian	Against Marcion	V.4	Marcion/ites	Latin Original	late 2nd/early 3rd cent
Tert., AM V.8	Tertullian	Against Marcion	V.8	Marcion/ites	Latin Original	late 2nd/early 3rd cent
Tert., Prescript.Haer. 27	Tertullian	Against Heresies	27	Marcion/ites	Latin Original	late 2nd/early 3rd cent

In the Dialogue, Adamantius argues the orthodox view, and is supposed to be using passages from Marcion's version of the Gospel & Paul's Letters to confute his opposite, a Marcionite. Adamantius' opponent in the dialogue (it's really a kind of debate), Megethius (no, headbangers, not Megadeth-ius), represents the Marcionites and cites from Marcion's version of the Gospel and Pauline Epistles.

Enjoy ...

DCH

jakejonesiv · 12-16-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Joseph Tyson has many scholarly publications, I learned from the July 2008 review In Catholic Biblical Quarterly by David M. Scholer of his Marcion and LUke-Acts. However, his severely late dates are based solely on Knox and Pervo. Dieter Roth shot down Knox, so how good is Pervo?

It is not clear to me that Dieter Roth "shot down" Knox. I haven't read through everything, but it appears that the most that Roth established was that there was no consensus of earlier German scholars on a late date for Acts.

Richard Pervo has devoted his scholarly life to Acts. He dates it to about 110 CE, which is not a severely late date - I think other scholars have dated it to 150 CE or later.

+1
Hi Toto,

You are right. D.Roth shoots down nothing, but reports on some forgotten scholar. It is typical of Adam that he thinks he can settle an issue by appealing to the authority, in this case an authority so obscure his works were largely ignored.

If Adam thinks these argumets shoot down a late date of Acts, he needs to present them, and defend them. But I predict he will not, but just keep repeating the claim that Dieter Roth refuted a late date of Acts, D.Roth refuted a late date of Acts, D.Roth refuted a late date of Acts, D.Roth refuted a late date of Acts, D.Roth refuted a late date of Acts, D.Roth refuted a late date of Acts

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11-20-2011, 01:43 AM	#121
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	BTW Toto I saw Puss and Boots too. I liked it but then again my mind is with my five year old most of the time.

11-20-2011, 08:53 AM	#123
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't think that Pervo has written anything on Marcion.

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