Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 02-24-2012, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

A sect that didn't know about Paul although supposedly Marcion did but Justin doesn't mention anything about the texts of Marcion because the Justin author never heard about them or even about canonical gospels or anyone who would have known his Christ.

So you believe that Justin belonged to a Christian sect that didn't know about Paul? Justin mentions Marcion actually alive and teaching. So if Marcion was using Paul's letters, Justin probably knew of Paul.

First Apology:

And, thirdly, because after Christ's ascension into heaven the devils put forward certain men who said that they themselves were gods; and they were not only not persecuted by you, but even deemed worthy of honours. There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god, and as a god was honoured by you with a statue...

And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations, worship him, and acknowledge him as the first god; and a woman, Helena, who went about with him at that time, and had formerly been a prostitute, they say is the first idea generated by him.

And a man, Meander, also a Samaritan, of the town Capparetaea, a disciple of Simon, and inspired by devils, we know to have deceived many while he was in Antioch by his magical art. He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die, and even now there are some living who hold this opinion of his.

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator....

All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians; just as also those who do not agree with the philosophers in their doctrines, have yet in common with them the name of philosophers given to them... we do know that they are neither persecuted nor put to death by you, at least on account of their opinions.

Duvduv · 02-24-2012, 12:40 PM

"Probably" doesn't count, and I have already pointed out that Justin does not cite a single word from any writings of Marcion or makes a single comment about any texts that Marcion may have possessed. None.
And this from someone who supposedly lived at the same time as Marcion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

A sect that didn't know about Paul although supposedly Marcion did but Justin doesn't mention anything about the texts of Marcion because the Justin author never heard about them or even about canonical gospels or anyone who would have known his Christ.

So you believe that Justin belonged to a Christian sect that didn't know about Paul? Justin mentions Marcion actually alive and teaching. So if Marcion was using Paul's letters, Justin probably knew of Paul.

First Apology:

And, thirdly, because after Christ's ascension into heaven the devils put forward certain men who said that they themselves were gods; and they were not only not persecuted by you, but even deemed worthy of honours. There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god, and as a god was honoured by you with a statue...

And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations, worship him, and acknowledge him as the first god; and a woman, Helena, who went about with him at that time, and had formerly been a prostitute, they say is the first idea generated by him.

And a man, Meander, also a Samaritan, of the town Capparetaea, a disciple of Simon, and inspired by devils, we know to have deceived many while he was in Antioch by his magical art. He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die, and even now there are some living who hold this opinion of his.

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator....

All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians; just as also those who do not agree with the philosophers in their doctrines, have yet in common with them the name of philosophers given to them... we do know that they are neither persecuted nor put to death by you, at least on account of their opinions.

Grog · 02-24-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Not necessarily. A later writer might just be winging it, especially if he himself was writing before all the information was crystalized. Furthermore, basic things about the Old Man, how he came to his Christ, why Justin was sure that the Christ lived 120 years earlier, etc. are different than precise anecdotes and memories.
Of course, had I written it, I would have said, "As old Jonas told me that his father saw Jesus when his father was a boy," etc. But the writer was apparently not all that swift.
But what about, "the Old Man told me that as a young man he met so-and-so in Galilee who told him about Jesus..."?? Evidently the writer was a lousy liar/forger.
He never studied Creative Writing in high school or college.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You would only expect this information if in fact Justin had that information and believed that Jesus in fact lived on earth recently.

If Justin's writings are not a forgery, but 1) he had no actual information about a historical Jesus 2) repeated the Jesus story as dogma because that was what he was taught that Christians should believe - then this is what you would expect.

If Justin's writings were a forgery meant to show the existence of a historical Jesus, you might expect that the forger would include the information you think ought to have been there - some anecdotes about people who knew Jesus or went fishing with him, or heard him speak.

Therefore, there is no support in the text for your idea that Justin's writings are a later forgery. They may well be later forgeries, but you need a different proof.

You are building an unfalsifiable case here, it seems to me. You've removed any method to evaluating this work. "A later writer may have been winging it..." "It could have been beamed down by Xenu..." There are a lot of "could haves" and our job is to weed out the ones that are less plausible.

Duvduv · 02-24-2012, 01:13 PM

By "winging it" I was referring to a situation of a poor writer, someone who did not know the story and the party line completely, especially if it was written before the full story and dogma were crystalized. That's all I said. The Dialogue is poorly written as a monologue of propaganda, and the Apology is rather unclear. It is obvious that had the writer known about Paul as part of the official pantheon, so to speak, he probably would have made a plug for Paul somewhere in the Justin writings, but he didn't. This does not preclude the possibility that someone was writing a treatise from some other sect that neverheless appealed to the Orthodox, or was writing before Paul was confirmed as part of the "pantheon."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Not necessarily. A later writer might just be winging it, especially if he himself was writing before all the information was crystalized. Furthermore, basic things about the Old Man, how he came to his Christ, why Justin was sure that the Christ lived 120 years earlier, etc. are different than precise anecdotes and memories.
Of course, had I written it, I would have said, "As old Jonas told me that his father saw Jesus when his father was a boy," etc. But the writer was apparently not all that swift.
But what about, "the Old Man told me that as a young man he met so-and-so in Galilee who told him about Jesus..."?? Evidently the writer was a lousy liar/forger.
He never studied Creative Writing in high school or college.

You are building an unfalsifiable case here, it seems to me. You've removed any method to evaluating this work. "A later writer may have been winging it..." "It could have been beamed down by Xenu..." There are a lot of "could haves" and our job is to weed out the ones that are less plausible.

GakuseiDon · 02-24-2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

"Probably" doesn't count, and I have already pointed out that Justin does not cite a single word from any writings of Marcion or makes a single comment about any texts that Marcion may have possessed. None.
And this from someone who supposedly lived at the same time as Marcion.

And therefore... what, exactly? He is writing to the Emperor and Senate for clemency for those named "Christians". He presents himself as a philosopher writing to fellow philosophers, all "lovers of truth":

To the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Caesar, and the adopted son of Pius, a lover of learning, and to the sacred Senate, with the whole People of the Romans, I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them.

Reason directs those who are truly pious and philosophical to honour and love only what is true, declining to follow traditional opinions, if these be worthless. For not only does sound reason direct us to refuse the guidance of those who did or taught anything wrong, but it is incumbent on the lover of truth, by all means, and if death be threatened, even before his own life, to choose to do and say what is right. Do you, then, since ye are called pious and philosophers, guardians of justice and lovers of learning, give good heed, and hearken to my address; and if ye are indeed such, it will be manifested. For we have come, not to flatter you by this writing, nor please you by our address, but to beg that you pass judgment, after an accurate and searching investigation...

Exactly where and why should Justin have included quotes from Marcion?

aa5874 · 02-24-2012, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Exactly where and why should Justin have included quotes from Marcion?

Justin Martyr did mention Marcion and fundamental teachings of the Marcionites:

1. There was Another God greator than the God of the Jews.

2. The Son of the OTHER God was NOT Jesus.

These fundamentals are corroborated by Ephraim the Syrian.

Duvduv · 02-25-2012, 05:28 PM

Justin Martyr, who supposedly lived at the same time as Marcion in Rome does not mention a single direct quote in the name of Marcion, only a couple of second-hand statements. Nothing about any writings of Marcion or what Christian texts Marcion had. There is alot of fishiness.
In his book on GLuke, C.P. Sense argues that it is not proven at all that Marcion was either a gnostic or a docetist. He describes "Irenaeus" as a liar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Exactly where and why should Justin have included quotes from Marcion?

Justin Martyr did mention Marcion and fundamental teachings of the Marcionites:

1. There was Another God greator than the God of the Jews.

2. The Son of the OTHER God was NOT Jesus.

These fundamentals are corroborated by Ephraim the Syrian.

aa5874 · 02-25-2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Justin Martyr, who supposedly lived at the same time as Marcion in Rome does not mention a single direct quote in the name of Marcion, only a couple of second-hand statements. Nothing about any writings of Marcion or what Christian texts Marcion had. There is alot of fishiness.
In his book on GLuke, C.P. Sense argues that it is not proven at all that Marcion was either a gnostic or a docetist. He describes "Irenaeus" as a liar...

"First Apology" was NOT written to deal with Marcion in particular it was written as a plea for Christians against persecution and abuse.

Justin Martyr did state or imply that he had dedicated another book about Heresies.

First Apology

Quote:

But I have a treatise against all the heresies that have existed already composed, which, if you wish to read it, I will give you.

Duvduv · 02-25-2012, 08:05 PM

Who cares what he "says"? The fact is not a SINGLE word from a text or about a text of Marcion when they supposedly lived at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Justin Martyr, who supposedly lived at the same time as Marcion in Rome does not mention a single direct quote in the name of Marcion, only a couple of second-hand statements. Nothing about any writings of Marcion or what Christian texts Marcion had. There is alot of fishiness.
In his book on GLuke, C.P. Sense argues that it is not proven at all that Marcion was either a gnostic or a docetist. He describes "Irenaeus" as a liar...

"First Apology" was NOT written to deal with Marcion in particular it was written as a plea for Christians against persecution and abuse.

Justin Martyr did state or imply that he had dedicated another book about Heresies.

First Apology

Quote:

But I have a treatise against all the heresies that have existed already composed, which, if you wish to read it, I will give you.

aa5874 · 02-25-2012, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Who cares what he "says"? The fact is not a SINGLE word from a text or about a text of Marcion when they supposedly lived at the same time...

Again, your claim is totally erroneous. I have already shown that Justin Martyr did mention one of the fundamental the TEACHINGS of Marcion.

Please EXAMINE "First Apology" XXVI attributed to Justin.

Quote:

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works....

Examine "Against Marcion" attributed to Ephraim the Syrian.

Quote:

These are two things from which the Marcionites have deflected, for they are not willing to call our Lord 'the Maker,' nor (do they admit) that He was (sent) by the Maker...

Ephraim wrote three proses Against Marcion and did NOT ever state one single time that Marcion used the Pauline letters.

In the books attributed to Justin there is NO mention of Paul but mention of Marcion.

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