lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

And I will ask you again why you do not insist on such proof of effectiveness if you win your point in all the other threads you open here and elsewhere!

Unless my interpretation fits with all the dates any scholar gives for this prophecy! That is the situation, actually...

Well, did you mean Arabic? That would be an ethnic group that is similar to Jewish people. Yet is this prophecy you have made guaranteed? I would say no ethnic group is guaranteed to last forever, in fact, for any group to last forever is quite impossible, naturalistically.

Will there always be Arabic people, when the last embers of the stars go out? I think if naturalism is correct, your prediction is incorrect.

Well, why is it that the skeptics cannot show that Babylon has been rebuilt? That is the prophecy I refer to, and it is a definite prophecy, and you may overturn it by rebuilding Babylon. And all the skeptics turn to other issues when I say that.

But the fact remains that Babylon was prophesied not to be rebuilt, whatever other prophecies may have been made, and it has not been rebuilt, and I challenge you or anyone else to try and rebuild it.

That is my defense, and I think it's succeeding!

Even if I had a photocopy of a doctor's assessment, you may well not believe me, it would seem, from my experience of talking with people here. But, for example, I have had food poisoning, and in several times that I experienced this, I prayed and was restored right away, which is unexpected.

Well, they don't believe in real prophecy!

Regards,
Lee

Jack the Bodiless

How many times do we need to point out that BABYLON HAS BEEN REBUILT since this prophecy was made?

Why are you pretending that we have not addressed this?

Of course, the prophecy has failed in OTHER ways too. Are these the "other issues" you're referring to?

Why are you pretending that the FAILURE of other aspects of the Babylon prophecy somehow causes THIS aspect of the prophecy to temporarily be "successful" while we're not specifically addressing it? Do you believe that falsehoods temporarily become true while skeptics are asleep?

Do you believe that there are fairies dancing in your garden whenever there are no humans watching?

Javaman

I've thought of asking this question in a thread of its own but here should do. Shouldn't everybody be Jewish? Were not Noah, his sons, and all four wives Jewish? It seems that everyone after Noah should be, at the very least, ethnically Jewish. Does this nullify the importance of this prophecy?

pharoah

The Jewish people of Biblical times were the people of the Southern Kingdom - which were the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and their descendents. Some of the scholars can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't that term was even used before the Exile.

Johnny Skeptic

It is much easier to invalidate the Babylon prophecy than it is to invalidate other prophecies. You issued a challenge, and I have accepted it, which you had no idea that any skeptic would do, and now you conveniently seek to divert attention to other prophecies. Are you afraid that I will be able to overturn the Babylon prophecy? It appears that such is the case. If I overturn the Babylon prophecy, would that not discredit other prophecies as well?

[quote=JohnnySkeptic] You have been unable to accurately date the Tyre prophecy, will means that you lose hands down.

Please quote your scholarly sources that accurate date the prophecy. I am not aware that you have ever done so. Please be aware that whenever the original version was written, it might have been revised later by someone other than Ezekiel. How is it possible for scholars to distinguish between the prophecy being written during Ezekiel’s lifetime or at a later date?

In my previous post I asked you why you believe that Alexander had anything to do with prophecy, but you conveniently did not answer my question. Please answer my question, and please quote some scholarly sources who agree with you.

What were the Scripture verses that you originally quoted about there always being a Jewish people? The Old Testament says that God chose Abraham and his descendants to be his chose people and made a lasting covenant with them. No matter who God made such a covenant with, some of the descendants of that group would still be around today as long as the descendants had children.

Most Arabs are Muslims, but most Muslims are not Arabs. For instance, most Muslims in Pakistan and Indonesia are not Arabs. Whether you wish to discuss Arabs or Muslims, both groups have continued to flourish, have they not?

I do not understand what you mean. Your arguments are that there have always been a Jewish people so far, not what will be the case in the future. There have always been Arabs and Muslims so far, so what is your point?

No, it is you who turned to other issues when I accepted your challenge to invalidate the prophecy.

As I showed previously, I said:

You replied:

It is not succeeding. I have accepted your challenge and now you are trying to divert attention away to other prophecies. You once said that Arabs pitching their tents in Babylon would invalidate the prophecy. You insist that skeptics accept your challenge, which I have done, but you have continued to refuse to accept my challenge to produce even a few Christians who will give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt, or if Arabs were to pitch their tents there. You have also continued to refuse to contact the U.S. State Department and ask them if U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims will change if Babylon were to be rebuilt, or if Arabs were to pitch their tents there. You are well aware that if you accepted my challenges you would embarrass yourself more than you already have.

Please do not pre-judge the conclusions that we skeptics will make if you provide us with a photocopy of your doctor’s assessment. Some readers at the IIDB are not skeptics. They are undecided and would like to read your evidence. Just post your evidence and let readers with various world views decide for themselves. Which particular assessment are you talking about? Is your doctor a Christian? If so, is he a Charismatic? Are you a Charismatic?

Unexpected things happen to people with many different world views, including to wild animals.
The odds are far greater that unexpected things will sometimes happen than they are that unexpected things will not happen. The most unexpected thing that could ever happen would be if unexpected things never happened. It is only due to limited human understanding that some things are unexpected.

Javaman

Thanks for that. I guess I just have trouble wrapping my head around this sometimes. I have some other questions rolling around in my skull but I don't want to derail this thread any further as my issues don't now seem relevant.

Sauron

Another claim from lee_merrill?

Cite the scholars, lee. Put your money where your mouth is.

No, it would not. Jewish is a religious/ethnic affiliation, not a race. Arabic is a language.

You seem to be forgetting that Alexander and Saddam rebuilt it.
You also forget the photographic evidence.
You forgot a lot of inconvenient things, don't you?

1. Babylon has been rebuilt - twice, in fact.
2. You have been given photographic evidence.
3. The Babylon prophecy falls apart like rotting wood on at least six other points.

Given all the above, there is therefore no need to take up your silly challenge - especially when you can't show that rebuilding would affect any christians or persuade them to give up their religion.

Only in the sense that Kleenex is a defense against a flamethrower.

How do you know? I realize you think you can speak for large groups of people - muslims, ancient mariners and engineers, etc. -- but how do you know what liberal christians believe? Why not take their word for what they think - instead of making it up on the spur of the moment, as you usually do?

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Perhaps because I don't think you have addressed this! The closest I recall anyone coming to this was Sauron saying Alex did some rebuilding. That does not mean it was rebuilt!

Saddam's palace, and a temple or two and a few theaters is what is meant by Babylon being rebuilt? No, that is not rebuilding a city. Saddam's palace is also crumbling...

I do believe the other aspects can be defended, too, and all the Bible! But I have a narrower focus in each thread, in order to make better progress, one point at a time. Why are you implying that some (putative) invalid prophecy means there is no prophecy that Babylon will be rebuilt?

There is such a prophecy, and that prediction can be defended, and even falsified.

That is my main point here!

I agree! Rebuilding Babylon would be a quite direct way to invalidate the prophecy that it will never be rebuilt.

And focusing on other prophecies does not invalidate this one.

I'm trying to steer away from another prolonged discussion on Tyre! Yet my view is that "many nations" could include Alex, the reason I believe that is that Babylon is not called "the nations of Babylon" in Scripture. But we have been over this ground before...

Here they are:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the Lord Almighty is his name: "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." This is what the Lord says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 33:24 - 34:1 "Have you not noticed that these people are saying, 'The Lord has rejected the two kingdoms he chose'? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. This is what the Lord says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.'"

That no people at all will last forever, according to naturalism. But various groups have attempted to erase all Jewish people, and no group has attempted this with any Arab group, that I know of.

Let us again notice that the attempts to do away with all Jewish people have failed, again and again, as in Hitler's crash. God really does back up his word...

Well, a counter-challenge, a condition, is not an acceptance of my challenge!

Well, this was only theoretical, for I have no photocopy to present, I only have my experience of being in the grip of food poisoning. Would you change your view if I had good evidence of being healed, may I ask? I would be glad to be wrong in my skepticism!

Well, it seems I am encountering some resistance to a change of view because of a reported healing...

Regards,
Lee

Jack the Bodiless

It's amazing how often you will admit failure, then dance around it and pretend there's nothing wrong.

"I do believe the other aspects can be defended, too, and all the Bible!...
...Why are you implying that some (putative) invalid prophecy means there is no prophecy that Babylon will be rebuilt?"

Another invalid prophecy, ANYWHERE in the Bible, about Babylon or ANYTHING else, would utterly refute your belief that "all the Bible" can be defended, and destroy the whole basis of "inerrancy" that underpins your worldview. But, no, let's dance back to Babylon and pretend there's no problem...

Furthermore, even staying within the Babylon prophecy: YOU said that 1000 people living there would be sufficient to claim that Babylon was "inhabited", and the article YOU linked to said that over 1000 people did indeed live there. So, let's dance around that too, and concentrate on "rebuilding"...

But Babylon wouldn't HAVE to be "rebuilt" if it was never destroyed as prophesied, and indeed it was not. There was SOME damage, and SOME repairs. Oops, let's dance onwards...

...To WHERE, exactly?

The Babylon prophecy lies in ruins. The Babylon prophecy is "uninhabitable". The Babylon prophecy can NEVER BE REPAIRED, Lee.

Johnny Skeptic

I have accepted your challenge to invalidate the Babylon prophecy, which can easily be done by having some Arabs pitch their tents there, and which you said would invalidate the prophecy, but you have not provided any reasonable proof that if the attempt is successful, the Christian Church will become much smaller than it is now, and that U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims will change.

My position is exactly the opposite. My position is that if I invalidate the Babylon prophecy, other prophecies are suspect as well.

As far as I know, the dating of the prophecy has never been covered before I brought it up, and you have never stated why you believe that Alexander had anything to do with the prophecy even though I asked you to do so on more than one occasion. A prolonged discussion is not necessary. Just accurately date the prophecy and state why you believe that Alexander had anything to do with the prophecy. Historically, kingdoms rising and falling has been the norm, not the exception.

For most of time since God’s supposed promise to Abraham, Israel HAS NOT been a nation in the land of Canaan. There is no external evidence that God ever made such a promise. Since there isn’t, would you like to claim that the survival of the Jewish people is miraculous? If so, you will need corroboration from a few respected historians.

Does it not seem strange to you that God would never reject a people who had Jesus killed, and the vast majority of whom have always rejected Christianity? The texts basically say that God rewards those who diligently seek him. Since the founding of Christianity, the vast majority of Jews have not diligently sought the Christian God.

So today’s police state of Israel is God’s restoring fortunes and compassion on the Jewish people, right? It is interesting to note that God promised Abraham and his descendants all of the land of Canaan, but today, the Jews DO NOT possess all of the land of Canaan.

Your attempt at establishing a correlation between the survival of the Jewish people and help from God would have some credibility if you have a good deal of corroboration from modern historians. Do you have any? Your reference to Hitler is patently absurd. First of all, he was quite successful at killing millions of God’s chosen people, was he not? Second of all, the majority of Jews in the world did not live in Germany, so how in the world could Hitler have killed Jews that did not live in Germany?

I accepted your challenge, and my counter-challenge is fair and reasonable since no one ever attempts to do anything unless he believes that a successful attempt will benefit him.

I have told you before that there is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to predict the future and goodness. The Bubonic Plague, the recent tsunami in Asia, and Hurricane Katrina, are proof enough of that.

It depends upon what your evidence is. You would need to provide a good deal of evidence that 1) miracle healings are not available to atheists and agnostics who no one is specifically praying for, that 2) a good number of people have had lost arms and legs restored (actually one well-documented case will do), and that 3) a good number of people have instantly been cured of severe cases of multiple sclerosis and cerebral palsy.

I do not know of any skeptic who would not be quite pleased if a God or anyone else were available to perform healings that ordinary men cannot perform.

No skeptic would oppose the existence of miracle healings if there were reasonable proof that they exist. If I believed that there was only a 10% chance that miracles exist, I would go out of my way to prove that they do exist.