gstafleu

So we agree . With some notes.

Judaism was just another religion, and as such shared (some) of the common themes. For example, they had a watered-down version of the Eucharist ritual in their common meals.

As for Hellenism, that would mean two things. First the civic and state religions with which we all are familiar (Zeus, Athena and what have you, including their Roman versions, and of course the related Emperor cult), and second the initiation cults (a better term than "mystery" cults). In Shamans, Sorcerers and Saints Brian Hayden defines these as follows:
This is certainly the impression I get from Apuleius' Golden Ass. It is also pretty close to what Christianity is about. Note the initiatory aspect of Christianity, where you have to believe in (i.e. develop a personal closeness to) Christ, which then results in a personal boon ("salvation").

Having said this, I don't think that everything in your list came from these sources. For example the holy trinity doesn't seem to fit. It does fit with the Celtic and generally Indoeuropean fondness of the number three, stemming from their three classes (warriors, priestly elites and commoners). Having said this, the Greeks and Romans also derive from the Indoeuropeans.

Some later Christian developments, like Christmas trees, Easter bunnies and medieval mythology in general, seem more Celtic/Germanic inspired to me than Greek/Roman.

Gerard Stafleu

No Robots

It would be more accurate to say that the Eucharist is a turbo-charging of the earlier Jewish Passover eve service.

Precisely. Pagan elements were grafted onto the Jewish core.

andrewcriddle

To show that something is plausibly Pagan in origin, I think one has to show that the practice or belief fits better within Paganism than within Judaism. The anomalous status within Judaism of the practice or belief is not in itself sufficient.

Andrew Criddle

spamandham

His argument is too speculative, and the "I don't have time to discuss the blood" claim falls flat considering his primary source, Eisler, also did not discuss it. A better explanation for the setting aside of the bread is the one I offered, ...the one most Jewish families actually recognize. Do you know any Jews?

Sure I did. I remarked that it comes off as an ad hoc attempt to basically say "and that's why we do this". See the post that started this discussion.

spamandham

There are enough examples of religious ideas evolving, and very few examples of genuinely new religious ideas, to allow the default presumption to be an evolution of ideas. If that evolution does not flow well from Judaism, and knowing that Christianity did not grow up in a vacuum, the simpler explanation is that it came from somewhere else.

In regards to likelihood from known sources...

A few months back (...uhg, finding the post will be hard at this point), I argued that the idea of ritual consumption of a god via food and alcoholic drink (beer rather than wine) is found in extant pyramid texts.

Since it is not found in Jewish tradition at all, Egyptian origin is more likely than Jewish, although it seems to me more likely still, that the idea was a Hellenistic theme ultimately derived from the Egyptian practice.

gstafleu

Except that this sounds as if Christianity added something new to the Jewish practice. Rather, they incorporated--or perhaps simply did not abolish--widely spread practices.

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

The theme is much wider than Hellenism, but that certainly could be the route it took to Christianity. Likely via the mystery cults, which seem expressions of populist (as opposed to elite) practices relating to fertility, rebirth and such. These could stem from Egyptian influences, but equally possible is a source in the various Indoeuropean invasions of Greece before, say, 800BCE or so.

Gerard Stafleu

Student of Sophia

So I'm wondering how people feel about a certain element in paganism, the OT and the NT.

Divination.

andrewcriddle

I think you mean Established Parallels between Horus and Jesus although the passages you quote, although interesting, are not IMO particularly strong parallels.

Andrew Criddle

spamandham

They are stronger than anything thus presented in regards to Jewish origin. Although I agree that in absolute terms, the parallels are weak.