Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fromdownunder · 03-26-2006, 05:42 PM

Were Neandertals involved in Agriculture? To make any connection with the Biblical Cain (as espoused in Genesis), this would have to be established otherwise any link between the Cain Biblie story, oral legends and Neandertal would be tenuous at best.

Norm

Anat · 03-26-2006, 05:52 PM

No they weren't.

Tigers! · 03-26-2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

I realise that this topic has probably been done to death over the years, but I would like to revisit the marriage of Cain. The YECs can only argue that he married his sister, but I contend that there is some difficulty in the entire narrative, and would like comments (for or against) on my speculations.

In sequence, Adam and Eve had Cain, then Abel, and (according to YECs ) an unknown number of sons and daughters before the birth of Seth. Cain killed Abel when he discovered that God preferred meat sacrifices to vegetarian sacrifices, even though, since Man did not eat meat in those days, it would be logical to assume that Cain would think that food would be the preferred offering.

* Speculation On* Now, Seth was born, as a replacement for the late Abel, when Adam was 130 years old. Based on the average age of the fathers of first born pre-history children, Adam was possibly about 70 when Cain was born, hence, if Eve pumped out one kid every 18 months between Cain and Seth, the population of the world would have been in the vicinity of 40, (of which maybe half would be of marrying age) when Cain killed Abel, and all of these people would have been Cain’s brothers and sisters *Speculation Off.*.

Cain gets kicked out of the place he lived but is terrified that one of his brothers will kill him, so God puts a mark on him as protection. He then goes off and finds himself a wife.

So we find that Cain was heading off to another land, where his (probably) 10adult brothers resided. Why did they leave the nest so young, and why would he automatically think that they would kill him on sight? After all they were his brothers!

He then finds one of his sisters marries her (eeeeuuwww) and possibly lives happily ever after. Why did they leave the nest so young as well?

The whole narrative sounds like fiction, which of course, it is.

Norm

Dredging from my memory banks I seem to recall that Jewish tradition (Talmudic, Josephus?) credited Adam/Eve with 33 sons & 30 daughters. The Biblical account doesn't tell us when the incident took place. Cain could have taken a niece as a wife.

fromdownunder · 03-26-2006, 06:30 PM

The funniest thing about this subject (well, to me anyway) is that I was discussing it with my duaghter, who is a fundie frootloop, and convinced her that the AiG explanation, based purely on Biblical "facts" was not necesarily correct.

Given the timelines of Genesis, it is possible for an inneranist to argue that Cain could have married his neice, great niece or even great great niece.

The latter is a relationship that is fairly remote and not many (assuming people lived for 900 years) would be aware of a relative that distant.

At least this reduces the "eeeeuuwww" factor of the Cain story, although it does not get over the issue that Cain's other brothers and sisters must have married each other (unless, of course Adam was into kids - since he did not find beastiality all that much to his liking, and preferred a human "help meet")

Norm

Asha'man · 03-27-2006, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

Given the timelines of Genesis, it is possible for an inneranist to argue that Cain could have married his neice, great niece or even great great niece.

And from who's womb did that neice, grand niece, or great great niece come from?

We start off with one woman and one man. In order to have any generations at all after that, there must be parent/child or brother/sister incest. There are no other options (unless God kept creating more people from clay).

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

The latter is a relationship that is fairly remote and not many (assuming people lived for 900 years) would be aware of a relative that distant.

Remote? The reason that remote in-family relationships become acceptable is that other sets of genetic material has been mixed in. In the case of A&E, there is no other genetic material, it's all from the same source.

fromdownunder · 03-27-2006, 06:17 AM

Asha'man

The niece or great, or great great niece would have obviously come from a marriage (or shacking up if you like) of Cain's brothers and sisters, or as I suggested earlier in the thread, if Adam happened to be into incest as well as screwing Eve....

Norm

Doug Shaver · 03-27-2006, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

but the explanations are unbiblical to say the least.

Oh, they are?

Please pretend I'm an inerrantist. I say that according to the Bible, there would have been plenty of women available for Cain to marry, and they weren't necessarily all sisters of his. Depending on how much time had elapsed, they could have been more distantly related. And in any event, at that time in human history incest was not a problem.

Now, show me something in the Bible that contradicts any of this.

fromdownunder · 03-27-2006, 01:31 PM

My first question to you would be where does the Bible say that Adam and Eve had girl babies prior to the birth of Seth?

Norm

Anat · 03-27-2006, 03:52 PM

It doesn't say they didn't. Girls don't count anyway, so they just get lumped up together into half a verse, but that doesn't say anything regarding when they were born.

fromdownunder · 03-27-2006, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

It doesn't say they didn't. Girls don't count anyway, so they just get lumped up together into half a verse, but that doesn't say anything regarding when they were born.

It doesn't say they didn't have sex with unicorns either. So maybe they did. I am not sure a valid argument can ever be based on what a book does not say.

The verse you are referring to (Genesis 5:4) specifically says they had other sons and daughters after Seth was born, not before.

As I have said, and that was at least part of the purpose of starting this thread, it is simple enough to fill in gaps where there are gaps (which are, well...eveywhere), and use the fill ins to argue anything you wish to.

People cannot have it both ways. You cannot believe in a perfect Bible and then make up stuff to prove it (as is often done, and this very thread provides evidence for that).

Norm

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-26-2006, 05:42 PM	#11
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	Were Neandertals involved in Agriculture? To make any connection with the Biblical Cain (as espoused in Genesis), this would have to be established otherwise any link between the Cain Biblie story, oral legends and Neandertal would be tenuous at best. Norm

03-26-2006, 05:52 PM	#12
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	No they weren't.

03-26-2006, 06:30 PM	#14
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	The funniest thing about this subject (well, to me anyway) is that I was discussing it with my duaghter, who is a fundie frootloop, and convinced her that the AiG explanation, based purely on Biblical "facts" was not necesarily correct. Given the timelines of Genesis, it is possible for an inneranist to argue that Cain could have married his neice, great niece or even great great niece. The latter is a relationship that is fairly remote and not many (assuming people lived for 900 years) would be aware of a relative that distant. At least this reduces the "eeeeuuwww" factor of the Cain story, although it does not get over the issue that Cain's other brothers and sisters must have married each other (unless, of course Adam was into kids - since he did not find beastiality all that much to his liking, and preferred a human "help meet") Norm

03-27-2006, 06:17 AM	#16
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	Asha'man The niece or great, or great great niece would have obviously come from a marriage (or shacking up if you like) of Cain's brothers and sisters, or as I suggested earlier in the thread, if Adam happened to be into incest as well as screwing Eve.... Norm

03-27-2006, 01:31 PM	#18
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	My first question to you would be where does the Bible say that Adam and Eve had girl babies prior to the birth of Seth? Norm

03-27-2006, 03:52 PM	#19
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	It doesn't say they didn't. Girls don't count anyway, so they just get lumped up together into half a verse, but that doesn't say anything regarding when they were born.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.