Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Prove that the canon was established

The existence of versions of the first Bibles - Codex Sinaiticus & Codex Vaticanus - in the 4th century. The variations of modern western bibles and Eastern [Orthodox] bibles *to them* suggests further editing, over subsequent centuries, as outlined in the catholic encyclopedia.

Further editing rules out a canon.
The existence of a codex does not constitute canon

Who established a canon? Where is the document or statement saying that a canon exists?
When were the texts incorporated in the codex written for the first time?

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The religion was established. The canon was established.
The canonical texts were written.
I know this view is considered heretical to many secular academics in the field.

Prove that the canon was established

What say you, duvduv?

MrMacSon · 10-17-2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

The existence of versions of the first Bibles - Codex Sinaiticus & Codex Vaticanus - in the 4th century. The variations of modern western bibles and Eastern [Orthodox] bibles *to them* suggests further editing, over subsequent centuries, as outlined in the catholic encyclopedia.

Further editing rules out a canon. The existence of a codex does not constitute canon.

You are playing with semantics, so you are equivocating - those 'codexes' are the first known, yet near-final, versions of the canon.

Quote:

Who established a canon? Where is the document or statement saying that a canon exists?

Err, the catholic encyclopedia -

Quote:

The formation of the New Testament canon (A.D. 100-220)

The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

[add - the Old testament was extensively re-written about 300BC/BCE and that is thought to have stimulated development of various alternative stories that included gnostic or apocryphal gospel-stories that became the for-runners of the synoptic gospels.]

Quote:

When were the texts incorporated in the codex written for the first time?

Good question - I hypothesise there were various versions of various texts around for a long time, in oral and written forms, before final versions were collated & edited as they were being incorporated [see the 'add' above].

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Further editing rules out a canon. The existence of a codex does not constitute canon.

You are playing with semantics, so you are equivocating - those 'codexes' are the first known, yet near-final, versions of the canon.

Err, the catholic encyclopedia -

[add - the Old testament was extensively re-written about 300BC/BCE and that is thought to have stimulated development of various alternative stories that included gnostic or apocryphal gospel-stories that became the for-runners of the synoptic gospels.]

Quote:

When were the texts incorporated in the codex written for the first time?

Good question - I hypothesise there were various versions of various texts around for a long time, in oral and written forms, before final versions were collated & edited as they were being incorporated [see the 'add' above].

codex is only a name for book. codex is an ancient manuscript text in book form

A near-final version is not a canon

The catholic encyclopaedia says that you are wrong; it says the canon was declared to be so in the council of Trent

When were the texts that made the canon written for the first time?

Who approved the canon? What form did this approval take?

Duvduv · 10-17-2012, 04:00 PM

Virtually all those who discussed the issue were dated from the fourth century and thereafter. Earlier ones are quite suspect from their context. We have discussed this. And there was no central authority to even establish a canon prior to the 4th century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Prove that the canon was established

What say you, duvduv?

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Virtually all those who discussed the issue were dated from the fourth century and thereafter. Earlier ones are quite suspect from their context. We have discussed this. And there was no central authority to even establish a canon prior to the 4th century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

What say you, duvduv?

Why did you write that the canon was established in the 4th century?

MrMacSon · 10-17-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The catholic encyclopaedia says that you are wrong; it says the canon was declared to be so in the council of Trent.

I acknowledge that the canon was finalised at the 16th century Tridentine Council [of Trent, Italy] - 1545-63.

Quote:

The codex is only a name for book.

A near-final version is not a canon.

Those 'codices' are books containing a near-final version of the canon - I will leave it up to you to compare & contrast those 4th century codices to the catholic canon determined over a 1,000 years later. Note: it will be different to Eastern canons or the Protestant bibles.

Quote:

When were the texts that made the canon written for the first time?

Who really knows? Will we ever know?

Quote:

Who approved the canon? What form did this approval take?

I'll leave you to research that (hint: we've been discussing some of it ...)

MrMacSon · 10-17-2012, 04:16 PM

The Council of Trent "convened in Trent (the capital of the Prince-Bishopric of Trent of the Holy Roman Empire, in Italy) between December 13, 1545, and December 4, 1563 in twenty-five sessions for three periods. During the pontificate of Pope Paul III the Council fathers met for the first through eighth sessions in Trent (1545–7), and for the ninth through eleventh sessions in Bologna (1547). Under Pope Julius III, the Council met in Trent (1551–52) for the twelfth through sixteenth sessions; and, under Pope Pius IV, the seventeenth through twenty-fifth sessions took place in Trent (1559–63)."

fr. Wikipedia

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The catholic encyclopaedia says that you are wrong; it says the canon was declared to be so in the council of Trent.

I acknowledge that the canon was finalised at the 16th century Tridentine Council [of Trent, Italy] - 1545-63.

Those 'codices' are books containing a near-final version of the canon - I will leave it up to you to compare & contrast those 4th century codices to the catholic canon determined over a 1,000 years later. Note it will be different to Eastern canons or the Protestant bibles.

Who really knows? Will we ever know?

Quote:

Who approved the canon? What form did this approval take?

I'll leave you to research that (hint: we've been discussing some of it ...)

So, What did you agree with duvduv?

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 04:36 PM

It is bedtime for me.

Good night

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10-17-2012, 04:16 PM	#308
MrMacSon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: South Pacific Posts: 559	The Council of Trent "convened in Trent (the capital of the Prince-Bishopric of Trent of the Holy Roman Empire, in Italy) between December 13, 1545, and December 4, 1563 in twenty-five sessions for three periods. During the pontificate of Pope Paul III the Council fathers met for the first through eighth sessions in Trent (1545–7), and for the ninth through eleventh sessions in Bologna (1547). Under Pope Julius III, the Council met in Trent (1551–52) for the twelfth through sixteenth sessions; and, under Pope Pius IV, the seventeenth through twenty-fifth sessions took place in Trent (1559–63)." fr. Wikipedia

10-17-2012, 04:36 PM	#310
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	It is bedtime for me. Good night

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