post tenebras lux

OK Giant Rabbit,
it will be no trouble (as it makes me giggle so much) but it will have to be this evening as lunchtime isn't that long. Plus, several of my bookmarks are on my work computer.

I approached Islam with an open mind (honest, even if I assumed that the perfect arabic of the Koran was probably a question of definition) but my first action was to do a search for 'blind' on a hadeeth database. The story of writing on a camel's thigh bone versus so hard it almost broke my thigh bone would have been enough, but when the whole point of the addition was that Allah had forgotten that the blind and old can't fight in a physical jihad it was just too much. I then started to ask 'why then?' Why did Allah give him those verse then. Which led to worries that Mohamed was merely making it up to suit his circumstances. The abrogations really don't help either. Nor that various books of the Koran are listed as being X many verses but now we only have X-Y verses. Even the 'satanic verses' (which are hard to track down) appear to fit better to the context than their replacements (or the originals if you're of a traditional viewpoint, as there were no satanic verses).

As for whether the Koran thinks the world is round or flat with seven firmaments above doesn't alter the fact that they have Alexander finding the actual stinking sizzling pool wherein the sun set each night and then talks about the habits of the local people who hide underground when the sun gets too near to them.

I'll find some more info by this evening.

Luxie

PS There's always the little case of Aisha ... If we're meant to follow the sunnia of the prophet then ....

Giant Rabbit

very interesting poins there :thumbs: Im not sure how we have come to the conclusion that Zul Qarnain is Alexander though you are right about the place of the setting sun; it seems very wrong. The Aisha thing has been explained to me in several ways. Firstly that the marriage was symbolic and paternal and not for the purpose of sex (an agnostic philosophy student told me that but I havent checked it out). Secondly that these marriages were common and that children matured early 'in those days'. Muslims claim it comes down to a difference in moral standards. :huh:

I dont know anything about the camel thigh-bone stuff. And I have to check out the hadeeth which speaks of the Quran being incomplete. I must try and find out what the proponents of Islam say on the matter.

Thanks for everything so far

Rhaedas

We have no problem here with different beliefs. Your beliefs may be challenged by our inquiries, as may ours by your thoughts, but we don't look down on anyone because of their viewpoint. If everyone here thought the same thing, it'd be rather boring.

Spookie Here

bfair2all

Giant Rabbit,

I had always considered myself a "good" Christian, but was always one to question my faith. When I was about 20 years old, my father, whom I love dearly and have the highest respect for, told me that he was an agnostic. That opened a world for me, because I knew that whatever path I took it would be OK with my family. I ended up an atheist, and I found the world to be a much more "magical" place without a god.

Something you might want to ask yourself, if your family were not muslims, would you fight hard to remain one? If not, why?

post tenebras lux

Hi Rabbit,
if you haven't already checked out the Freethought Mecca site, I'd recommend it as a good starting point for many lines of thought.

A Christian-Muslim talking shop called Answering Islam has interesting articles on apparent contradictions in the Koran.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/index.html.

Some of these points are rebutted on the Islamic Awareness webite
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/

Personally I thought some of the rebuttals flawed but maybe I'm just too much of a sceptic. If you are really ready to question the Koran's miraculous nature, then go in as a sceptic and see if you're convinced.

They talk about Aisha on http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html.

My problem with the common defense of 'different social practices' is that Mohamed specifically states that his Sunnia is to be followed (and that he's the final prophet and there'll be no more changes or reinterpretations). Plus, if Allah can change social practices to ban alcohol, fancy clothes, idols, etc. then why can't he change them to ban old men sleeping with first menses 9 year old girls. Medically a 9 year old is not ready, her bones are still forming and are easily deformed, etc (as Allah would know). Why, instead of dictating some verses to Mohamed banning this practice did he show the naked Aisha to Mohamed in dream?

Remember: if this God exists then we're allowed to expect a higher standard from him than from a mortal human, no?

And this dream bit is - from a sceptic's point of view - a bit sick. Consider what stage of his life Mohamed had reached. He was gaining power and was feared even, plus he was - to many and to Aisha's family - the messanger of God. Then he walks up to his best mate and said 'God revealed your naked six year old daughter to me last night. Guess that means I'm to marry her even if she's already engaged'. I really don't think she had much choice in the matter, do you? Again, the Koran states that it's the final set of rules and that there'll be no more changes. This practice of old men marrying preteens continues even today - with Aisha used as justification.

The same goes for slavery. If Allah is in favour of slavery, then why don't good muslims have them now? And if he's against, then why did Mohamed allow it to continue?
Plus I think there's some reference to having slaves in heaven but maybe it was only servants. Heaven does seem awful full of servants/slaves when it's being described.

And then there's the question of Jinn. Has anyone defended their existance to you? If they're not, then how do we read the references to them?

I haven't seen my references for Alexander nor the hadith (I'll revert to my old spelling). I do remember that there are hadiths allowing for the 'correction' of other hadith as well as for the actual invention of hadith and the reattributing of sayings to become hadith. Will try and find my notes as I remember many weird ones.

The blind verse I refered to earlier is 4:95 and mentioned in Bukhari 6.60.116-8 and 5.52.85 as well as in the other hadith collections.

Hope you're enjoying the whole of the Infidels website and not just the IIDB.

Luxie

Spookie Here

Giant Rabbit:
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry concerning Iraq. I think the issue there has existed for awhile. I don't know how the natives there think the issue should be resolved. Some of those fueding are related, just like in other wars.

Hedshaker

No thanks necassary, your pleasent tone makes for easy discourse :thumbs:

Maybe your head should listen to your heart then. My deconversion from Catholicism wasn't as easy as I made it sound. It took time and much soul searching but was worth the effort since it has greatly benefitted my mental health. I sincerely believe that no one (NO ONE) deserves hell as depicted by Christianity (I don't know about Islamic hell but I suspect it's similar). I truely believe there is no hell and there is no heaven and there are no gods and the solution to your anguish is staring you in the face. But that's for you to decide.

<side track> Where abouts in Birmingham are you? I live just down the road from you in Brownhills near Walsall :wave: </sidetrack>

Orbit

Giant Rabbit

OMG! I cant say where I live since it is not safe but I live VERY close by and will be in Brownhills today working in a few parks (Holland Park and Bradbury Park and one other) doing some surveys! That's one hell of a coincidence!

IrishGuy

Hi Rabbit

Edit: deleted post.