Mageth

Speaking of which, you've avoided my questions and comments about perfection and imperfection. Do I need to post them for the third time?

Here's a link to the second post:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...91#post1643491

Queen of Swords

Was this way provided to Adam, Eve, and all the other people before the burnt offerings/crucified offering?

How was it offered to Aborigines who died before the white man reached Australia with guns and bibles?

Magus55

Um, care to explain how dado's comment includes justice and fairness? He is stating that the afterlife ( implying a good afterlife), is for everyone. In other words, Hitler and Mother Theresa are on the same level, through their own actions. If this were the case, what is the point of leading a good life? That doesn't sound fair or just to me, and I disagree with dado's interpretation. He makes the Mosaic laws completely irrelevent, since you can not follow them, and still enjoy the afterlife. God was extremely strict regarding the laws. It makes no sense if they have no ultimate purpose. Explain to me how that is just or fair.

And why is Jesus the longest running and most successful Messiah? Maybe its because He was the only one telling the truth? Since Messiah's were common back then, it was common practice for the followers to disband after the Messiah died. But Jesus' followers stayed together, and became the most successful religion on Earth. Now of course I know you disagree, and will claim Constantine or the Catholic Church is the only reason that Christianity survived compared to other Messiah's, but I think Jesus' success is relevent to the truth of His ministry.

Mageth

They, of course, were perfectly capable of looking at the scorched interior of Australia and thus deduce the existence of the Christian God.

Queen of Swords

According to fundamentalist christianity, there's no point in leading a good life anyway.

Great! Now you know how we feel.

So did Muhammed's. That makes Islam valid as well.

Mageth

Does that question even need answering? If you can't think of any reason for leading a good life outside of the promise of heaven and the threat of hell...

The Mosaic laws had nothing to do with promises or threats in the afterlife.

So then we can rank the truth of the various religions by the number of their adherents, by their popularity? Roman Catholicism is then, of course, the most true of the various Christian religions. Islam is almost as true as Christianity as a whole, and will probably be more true in 50 years or so if current trends continue...

dado

a faith promising hellfire and damnation for "the other guy" and founded on the principle that You Really Suck is a much more effective tool of political coersion than a faith grounded on the idea that the individual has inherent value.

i'm not really sure what you're getting at. for me, faith is a starting point, and a key element of faith is that i have a brain for a reason. i don't see them as incompatible and to be honest i see my faith as a bastion *against* fundamentalism. i realize not everybody is walking that path, lol.

cjack

Which is kinda messed up, seeing as he's the one who set us up to fail. (according to the Christians, at least)

God, being God, could have just as easily allowed humanity to try and earn their way to Heaven, and (being all-knowing) would realize that some of us would muck it up at some point. After all, He allegedly created us imperfect, so why does He get his mighty undies in a bunch when we have the unmitigated audacity to show up on His doorstep being *gasp* less than perfect???

This is a pretty messed up system you're pushing here, Magus!

God makes us imperfect, knows full well that we can't possibly live up to His standards, and then punishes us for the crime of being imperfect!



And here's where the system gets scary...you can't possibly earn your way into Heaven by being a decent human being, so don't even bother trying.

One of the big reasons I reject Christianity is right there in big bold letters:

It is a system which places no value whatsoever on goodness for its own sake. There is no reason for you to be a good person, do good works, or treat other people like you'd like them to treat you because it ultimately doesn't matter. God quite frankly doesn't give a rat's ass if you cured cancer or killed millions, 'cause it all boils down to an accept Jesus/reject Jesus question.

If you choose the former, it doesn't really matter how evil you were in life, and if you choose the latter, no amount of goodness will win you any favors with this supposedly loving and merciful God.

:banghead:

Magus55

Yup they were saved through faith. The first act of taking a life for another is given by God when He kills animals to clothe Adam and Eve.

Queen of Swords

Is that idea backed up by bible verses, or is it just your own unsupportable opinion?

That's not in the text. You seem to be reading what you want into the bible.

Whatever happened to forgiving their sins? Does forgiving come with putting on clothes?