mountainman

Dear gentleexit,

Aurelius Victor demarks Constantine's life into three sets of (approximate) decades - the good, the bad and the ugly. Things started allright in 305 but ten years later he is called a "robber" and/or a "brigand". (NOTE: this was before Nicaea). The final ten years are associated with irresponsibility. There are a number of translations of Victor's summary of Constantine's life, here is one:

The downhill spiral of the emperor Constantine may be associated with the corruptions attendant with holding the rule of absolute power. Seutonius' Twelve Caesars, although far earlier that the fourth century, provides us with the narratives of how absolute power corrupted Roman emperors. (Need I mention modern political examples?)

He was termed a mocker because he openly mocked the ancient traditions. (To the extent of destroying the ancient and revered temples). What he did with the technology of the literature is yet to be revealed in history, but he did not use it with integrity, rather he is to be associated with bravado and fraud. (See Robin Lane-Fox on "Constantrine's Oration at Antioch). The question in my mind is whether he used the Jewish tradition in his state monotheistic Roman religion in order to mock the Hellenistic (ie: Pythagorean/Platonic) traditions (esp the literature) of the eastern empire.

Best wishes,


Pete

avi

Writing sarcastically, for a change,
The North American "Buffalo", i.e. Bison, was nearly extinct in 1881, when the herd had shrunk from 50 million in the mid 19th century to only a dozen animals remaining. By 1940 there were fewer than 25,000 animals. Nevertheless, the USA government in that year, minted a coin, a famous coin, which I often saw, as a boy: the famous buffalo nickel. Like the buffalo themselves, these coins are no longer in circulation, but the point is, they were minted over a twenty year period, despite the fact that the animals themselves were no longer relevant to North American society. Whether a coin is introduced or displaced from circulation is not always a function of some particular aspect of social organization. Sometimes coins continue to be produced, because of expediency. Other times, leaders of society in control of the coin producing apparatus, simply admire a particular design, or a particular ideology expressed on the coin. One would err in assuming that Buffalo played an important role in USA society, during the twenty years of minting of that particular coin. The fact that Sol Invictus appears on Roman coins is not, for me at least, dispositive in establishing the religious or political ideology of Constantine. I trust that no one imagines Franklin Roosevelt riding around in his wheel chair, killing Buffalo.

Thank you very much for the three links. I had actually looked at them, briefly, and I will go back and reread them, more carefully, but what am I looking for? Athanasius? Woah. Oops.
I am not certain what I should expect to learn from reading anything written by such a devout anti-Arian. This guy fulfills my notion of a perfect Christian: He would have been at the forefront of the book burning crusades. Can you narrow it down? What, you mean I should read Athanasius' reference to Ossius having invented the Nicene Creed, as recorded by Athanasius fifty years after the fact: I haven't much faith in any kind of historical accuracy from this guy....Maybe I am wrong...I do believe that Ossius went to bat for Athanasius, when the latter was expelled....I confess to being so utterly hostile to Catholicism that I am unable to bring myself to regard one word of their dogma as valid.

avi

Thank you Jeffrey. I acknowledge total ignorance. Please educate me. I would profit from your explanation.
I will be glad to study the references you provide, as long as you understand that I am only now commencing with the alphabet in Greek, haven't yet progressed beyond chapter three in Mounce's book, and accordingly, depend at least for the forseeable future on English translations.

mountainman

Dear gentleexit,

In terms of archaeology during the period from zero to 312 CE we do have at least one very secure benchmark - The Therapeutae of Asclepius - the temple cults which Constantine sacked, destroyed and prohibited from "business as usual".

If we had some christian archaeology I would not be here.


Photius also informs us that the historian Philostorgius wrote that:


Eusebius was an editor of at least one scriptorium. Soldiers and Scribes may have been treated the same way by Constantine - in that they were expendable. (Consider were Pamphilus fits in to this thesis for example: Pamphilus may have not have like the idea of fabricating literature, and paid the penalty of voicing dissent).

Have you read Sir Isaac Newton's comments "On the Morals of Athasius and his Followers"?


My position is that the schisms in christianity only commenced from 324/325 CE at which time it was elevated by COnstantine into the political environment of the greek academics of the eastern Roman empire. And there was resistance to it.

I have absolutely no problem with the existence of a collegiate universal church consistent of networks of temples before COnstantine -- but none of these IMO can be said to be christian - the archaeology says, rather shouts "The Healing God Asclepius, the Son of Apollo, the Son of Zeus". If there was a collegiate network and a universal church then it was wholly pagan.

If you are interested in how professional ancient historians deal with the claims to the existence of a universal (christian) church prior to Constantine, then have a look at what Momigliano writes when he discusses the existence of the "universal church" in his works:

* Pagan and Christian Historiography in the Fourth Century

* The Classical Foundations of Modern Historiography.

Best wishes,


Pete

Jeffrey Gibson

I did not ask you about the meaning of Greek texts. So I'm not sure what you are telling me about your ignorance of Greek.

Nor do I understand your asking me to explain things.

What I asked you -- in response to your claim that in your eyes there were no grounds for accepting Spin's position that Ossius participated, since you were "unaware of any documentary, primary evidence to support the notion that Ossius played a significant role at Nicea" -- was to tell me what you have actually read about the goings on at Nicea.

Have you read anything on the history of, and activities at, Nicea? If so, what was it?


And then there's the still unanswered question -- which, again, knowledge of Greek has no bearing on -- of what it is that leads you to say, as you have said, that there was a Cathedral at York in the 300s. What is it -- if anything at all -- that informs this claim?

Jeffrey

gentleexit

It's taste. Before the fourth century, you meet the unanswerable, ala "was there a real Jesus" and the related "if so, then what did he say?" and the reams of people who refuse to accept the unanswerable, that history isn't physics. You get ossuaries on cable "documentaries", arks on Turkish mountains, lot's of Schliemann's chasing the "real" Troy. Yes, there's texts and analysis to do on them and I like this stuff but it's dry, grammarian's work. It won't give you flesh and blood without a lot of imagination (Gnostic Paul anyone).

But once you break into the fourth century, you get Christian HISTORY. Finally, a match for what we know of Rome, of Greece. You can dig for it and read first hand accounts. And it was the time that defined what people think of as Christianity today - though that's uncomfortable for "believers". I think, if you want to see the post-classical west, visit here and Pete's questions (not his answer) put much of that century in play. Without the cries from the mountain, many a discussion group would languish in bittiness and fantasy.

J-D

Personally I don't find discourtesy to be 'wonderful'.

J-D

And in all the time you have been 'exploring' it, you have been unable to produce a single fragment of evidence in favour of it. Not one skerrick. Not a tittle. I estimate the value of your hypothesised postulate in accordance with its evidentiary support: nil.

mountainman

Dear J-D,

One should never confuse constructive patience and courteousness, or their brevity, with their opposites.

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear J-D,

It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind
the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians (ie: the NT canon)
is a fiction of men composed by Constantine.

Though it has in it nothing divine,
by making full use of that part of the soul
which loves fable and is childish and foolish,
it has induced men to believe
that the monstrous tale is historical truth.

Best wishes,


Pete