avi

Thank you Dave, very interesting post today.
Two questions.
1. Is your quote above from this book (or via: amazon.co.uk) or this one (or via: amazon.co.uk)?
2. Am I then, to understand that you regard the "fact" (reference?) that Hadrian built a second pool, perhaps near the site of the first one (?), as having resolved definitively the question of an early date for authorship of gJohn (i.e. prior to 70CE)--at least regarding John 5:2?

I do not understand how the quote above, from the Princeton scholar, addresses the other underlying question: validity of the "received" versions of the Greek texts, versus the three "oldest" extant versions, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrine. We need a careful word by word analysis, I believe, from each of these three oldest papyrus docs, (if they contain this portion of John?), juxtaposed to the newer versions, in order to understand more clearly this second problem, something of a controversy from the original post, a couple of years ago.....

Dave31

Thanks avi.

1. The quote is attributed to Dr. James Charlesworth's "Reinterpreting John" from the Bible Review of Feb. 1993 online.

2. Regardless of the manuscript one has, if this part of John is in there and it's discussing a building that didn't exist until AFTER 135 CE then, that scripture could not have been written until after 135 CE.

Also, this is cited & discussed in Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk) page 231-2.

avi

I apologize for my gross stupidity, but, I remain confused on this point. I understood, perhaps completely in error, that the building constructed by Hadrian, or at least, on his order, was located adjacent to, or right upon the original pool, with its own structure, which the Romans had destroyed in 70 CE. Is this wrong? In other words, I thought BOTH the ancient Bethesda, and the newer, Hadrian accomplishment, represented healing pools, a sort of spa, with buildings adjacent, for various spa related activities....In other words, somewhere along the line, I have confounded the notion that Hadrian's version is both uniquely different from the "original, pre70CE version", and incompatible with at least some versions of the text in John 5: 2.

andrewcriddle

Most scholars seem to interpret the five porches or porticoes as the four sides and the central divide of the double pool discovered by archaeologists.
If so, then the five porches or porticoes are older than Jesus and go back to the late BCE construction of the second pool.

If the five porches or porticoes refer to shrines for Asclepius they would probably be later than Jesus (although a small group of scholars believe that the pool was already devoted to Asclepius before 70 CE). However the identification of the five porches or porticoes specifically with Asclepius worship seems a little speculative.

Andrew Criddle

Jeffrey Gibson

Actually, to my knowledge, Asclepius had 6 daughters (Hygieia, Meditrina, Panacea, Aceso, Iaso, and Aglaea) and 3 sons (Machaon, Telesphoros, and Podalirius).

And the Qumran Copper Scroll seems to attest to Judean knowledge of the pool before 70 CE (cf. A. Wolters “Copper Scroll,” in Dictionary of New Testament Background [ed. Craig A. Evans and Stanley E. Porter; Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000] 215.

See, too, E.J. Vardaman, “The Pool of Bethesda,” Biblical Research 14 [1963]: 27-29; J. Wieand, "John V. 2 and the Pool of Bethesda," NTS, 12 [1966)], pp. 392-404, esp. pp. 394-395).

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

So E.J. Vardaman, “The Pool of Bethesda,” Biblical Research 14 [1963]: 27-29;

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

But Josephus is aware of the area in Jerusalem known as Bethesda. See War 2. 328.


What is your source for this claim?

Jeffrey

Dave31

It says here that in the earlier myth he had two daughters, while in the later myth they numbered FIVE. The building around 135 CE would be representative of the LATER myth, as would be appropriate.

I see nothing here about six daughters.

As we know, MYTHS CHANGE.

The Dictionary of Classical Mythology

Big deal - where's the mention of the "five porticoes" (RSV) or "five porches" (KJV) mentioned in John 5:2 ?