Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hinduwoman · 10-09-2003, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
A fellowship with His creation. He doesn't need worship, He justs wants to love His creation, and be loved in return. A large part of worship is more for us than God. By focusing on God above all us, it keeps us striving to be pure and live for Him, instead of living for ourselves and sin.

If he is complete and perfect by himself why should He want love?

winstonjen · 10-09-2003, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman
If he is complete and perfect by himself why should He want love?

Because he's selfish.

premjan · 10-09-2003, 01:52 AM

selfish is perfect?
only in the USA...

winstonjen · 10-09-2003, 01:54 AM

It's all about him, never about us.

Cross Examiner · 10-09-2003, 09:52 AM

Good questions. Again. Out of a desire to invent the wheel only once, please direct thyself hither. And on that note:

"When humans should have become as perfect in voluntary obedience as the inanimate creation is in its lifeless obedience, then they will put on its glory, or rather that greater glory of which Nature is only the first sketch."

-- C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

Peace be upon you,
BGic

Solanalos · 10-09-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
I [of 'the Christians'] did respond directly to your oft-repeated question here; see the middle of the post. Short answer is God does not 'demand worship from us humans in order for us to get into heaven' though those who chose not to know/seek Him in this life will not be in His presence in the next. The criteria for attaining heaven is not worship, per se, it is relationship, a subtle but important distinction. Now, a right relationship naturally leads to other things like worship. For example, a knowing, grateful heart naturally seeks to exalt its benefactor. I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for, Solanalos, but please do let me know if I can clarify something.

Regards,
BGic

Alright, you don't have to worship, but you need to have a right relationship in order to get into heaven. I actually do need some clarity: How is maintaining a right relationship with God different from worship?

Having a right relationship involves the acknowledgement of God as supreme, does it not? If it doesn't, how is the relationship different from one with a human? The admition that God is perfect and great while we are flawed and lowly is the fundamental premise of the relationship. Everything else rests on this. There can be no right relationship outside the bounds of worship. Worship encompasses God's demand for a right relationship in order for us to get into heaven.

Even if you could logically separate the two [worship & right relationship] and rationalize a fundamental difference, it does not eliminate the fact that God requires us to glorify [privately in the case of a right relationship] him in order for us to get into heaven. For instance, having a right relationship is based on the admission of God's greatness.

The man who unawarely happens to lead a pious life according to Christian moral code is condemned because of his lack of inner admission and exhaltation of God [right relationship]. It seems Your Lord is more interested in being the center of attention than whether or not we lead moral lives.

My original question still stands: What does God get out of a right relationship [worship]? Why does having a right relationship outweigh moral living when it comes to the criteria for entrance into heaven?

Cross Examiner · 10-09-2003, 05:41 PM

Solanalos,

Quote:

Alright, you don't have to worship, but you need to have a right relationship in order to get into heaven. I actually do need some clarity: How is maintaining a right relationship with God different from worship?

A right relationship with God begets (i.e. ontologically precedes) worship of God � an if A then B kind of thing.

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Having a right relationship involves the acknowledgement of God as supreme, does it not?

Supreme? Supreme as in God is �omnimax?� Not sure what you mean.

Quote:

If it doesn't, how is the relationship different from one with a human?

It�s actually quite similar. See Plantinga's God and Other Minds: A Study of the Rational Justification of Belief in God for more info on this subject and more.

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The admition that God is perfect and great while we are flawed and lowly is the fundamental premise of the relationship.

'Flawed,' yes. 'Lowly,' not necessarily. False, self-deprecating humility is no humility at all.

"Perfect humility dispenses with modesty."

-- C.S. Lewis The Weight of Glory

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Everything else rests on this.

Better rethink that argument then.

Quote:

There can be no right relationship outside the bounds of worship.

If you really know God then you cannot help but worship Him. If you have no desire to do so then you must wonder whether you know Him or not.

Quote:

Worship encompasses God's demand for a right relationship in order for us to get into heaven.

Demand? Does water 'demand' to be separated from oil? No. It doesn't need to.

Quote:

Even if you could logically separate the two [worship & right relationship] and rationalize a fundamental difference, it does not eliminate the fact that God requires us to glorify [privately in the case of a right relationship] him in order for us to get into heaven. For instance, having a right relationship is based on the admission of God's greatness.

Requires? When you look at the Book of Revelation you see a lot of worship and its all voluntary. No requirement or demands needed whatsoever.

Quote:

The man who unawarely happens to lead a pious life according to Christian moral code is condemned because of his lack of inner admission and exhaltation of God [right relationship].

Which man would this be, exactly?

Quote:

My original question still stands: What does God get out of a right relationship [worship]?

God experiences joy when His creatures freely choose to do what is right for them to do -- and He experiences joy upon seeing their resultant growth and happiness as well.

Quote:

Why does having a right relationship outweigh moral living when it comes to the criteria for entrance into heaven?

Ever see perfect 'moral living?' Me neither. God is Holy. Morally perfect. We must be morally perfect (lest we be oil to water) though we cannot of our own effort be perfect. What to do? We may, volitionally (He won�t make us into something we will not to be), be transformed into the image of Christ, the only One who was or could be perfect. Holiness (via transformation) is the standard to attain God's eternal presence (i.e. heaven). Hope that helps some.

Regards,
BGic

Darth Dane · 10-09-2003, 11:13 PM

Winstojen: It's all about him, never about us.

Which "God" are you talking about, just so I am clear?

winstonjen · 10-10-2003, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Winstojen: It's all about him, never about us.

Which "God" are you talking about, just so I am clear?

The Christian god.

Darth Dane · 10-10-2003, 02:07 AM

Winstonjen: The Christian god.

So christianity's portrayal of "God", it is not the "God" of Christ right?

10-09-2003, 01:52 AM	#73
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	he's selfish selfish is perfect? only in the USA...

10-09-2003, 09:52 AM	#75
Cross Examiner Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Carlsbad, CA Posts: 1,881	reiterating reiterations Good questions. Again. Out of a desire to invent the wheel only once, please direct thyself hither. And on that note: "When humans should have become as perfect in voluntary obedience as the inanimate creation is in its lifeless obedience, then they will put on its glory, or rather that greater glory of which Nature is only the first sketch." -- C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory Peace be upon you, BGic

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10-09-2003, 01:54 AM	#74
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	It's all about him, never about us.

10-09-2003, 11:13 PM	#78
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Winstojen: It's all about him, never about us. Which "God" are you talking about, just so I am clear?

10-10-2003, 02:07 AM	#80
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Winstonjen: The Christian god. So christianity's portrayal of "God", it is not the "God" of Christ right?

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