Freethought & Rationalism Archive

starling · 02-06-2006, 04:27 PM

I got to debate with a Christian today! He's a weak Christian who should call himself atheist, but still has some tomfool notions, and is utterly adamant about them. Here is his argument, and I would like to know how to deal with this sort of argument if anyone has an idea.

Me: Do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus?

Him: I believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the only prophet.

Me: So like he can tell the future?

Him: He was one of the prophets, but there were more than one, but he was one of them.

Me: I hear you. That argument got blown apart for me though, when I read the part of the bible where Jesus says "all this will happen in your lifetime" to the disciples.

Him: Uh... yeah.

Me: ...

At that point I didn't know what to do. Was he agreeing with me? If so, why does he believe Jesus is a prophet? Was he disagreeing with me? How do I address his disagreement? What I did was ask him another theological question on the New Testament resolving the old one, but it felt like I got sideswiped there. What do you do when someone agrees with you, but does it in an empty and noncommital way? How could he sit on those contradictions without trying to resolve them? The argument by laziness?

This friend took a comparative religion course. He's interested in religions. But when I said that Jesus himself said something totally fake about the future, he is too lazy to care to ask more? I guess his brainwashing filters just went up, but what's a good way to dig through those without putting him on the defensive?

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-06-2006, 05:28 PM

A prophet doesn't have to be able to tell the future. That's not really what the word means. I think maybe "uh...yeah" could be an acknowledgement that Jesus got the prediction wrong (at least literally) but that it didn't necessarily undermine his status as a prophet.

Garnet · 02-06-2006, 05:37 PM

It's pretty simple. Sounds like he doesn't know enough about his own religion to make a cogent response.

Move along...nothing to see here.

rob117 · 02-06-2006, 05:37 PM

A prophet is a charismatic religious reformer who attempts to change the way people look at religion. Whether or not the message is genuine has nothing to do with the definition of prophet. For example, secular texts refer to Mohammed as "The Prophet Mohammed" all the time, simply because that is the title he is traditionally called by. Likewise, referring to Jesus as "Jesus Christ" is not necessarily an affirmation that Jesus is the Christ.

fatpie42 · 02-06-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob117

A prophet is a charismatic religious reformer who attempts to change the way people look at religion. Whether or not the message is genuine has nothing to do with the definition of prophet. For example, secular texts refer to Mohammed as "The Prophet Mohammed" all the time, simply because that is the title he is traditionally called by. Likewise, referring to Jesus as "Jesus Christ" is not necessarily an affirmation that Jesus is the Christ.

Well on that view Nietzsche was a prophet. Great.

Still I don't think muslims would accept Nietzsche as a prophet, not just because they disagree with him but because they believe a prophet must have a message from God (though arguably agreeing with a 'prophetic vision' and accepting it as 'revelation from God' are the same thing)

yummyfur · 02-06-2006, 07:05 PM

my guess, if he was a quasi atheist, he meant prophet as

"A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression."

second definition from
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prophet

his um..yeah, was becasue he was confused how your argument had anything to do with his original statement. you were talking at cross definitions, because you were using the third definition.

So you would have to use other arguments that show maybe Jesus didn't really have any profound moral teachings for his time.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-06-2006, 07:20 PM

A prophet is someone who "channels" or interprets the word of God. It comes from a Greek word, prophetes, which means literally "before-teller." It's derived from prophanai, which means "to speak before" (or to speak for. i.e on behalf of). A prophetes is one who speaks on behalf of or interprets the will of the gods. This might involve divination or prediction but not necessarily. You can think a guy has a message from God without necessarily believing EVERYTHING he says is inspired.

My guess, though, is that starling's friend just didn't have an answer and was dribbling the ball, hoping something would come to him.

sharon45 · 02-06-2006, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

My guess, though, is that starling's friend just didn't have an answer and was dribbling the ball, hoping something would come to him.

More like dribbling on the ball just as his prophet was. The guy is holding loosely to something he does not understand, but also does not yet want to let go.

Thomas II · 02-07-2006, 04:33 AM

A PROPHET is someone CLAIMING supernatural guidance in predicting the future.
Did Mohamed have supernatural guidance?
Of course NOT.
Are his followers supernaturally guided?
Of course NOT.

Thomas II · 02-07-2006, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starling

I got to debate with a Christian today! He's a weak Christian who should call himself atheist, but still has some tomfool notions, and is utterly adamant about them. Here is his argument, and I would like to know how to deal with this sort of argument if anyone has an idea.

Me: Do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus?

Him: I believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the only prophet.

Me: So like he can tell the future?

Him: He was one of the prophets, but there were more than one, but he was one of them.

Me: I hear you. That argument got blown apart for me though, when I read the part of the bible where Jesus says "all this will happen in your lifetime" to the disciples.

Him: Uh... yeah.

Me: ...

At that point I didn't know what to do. Was he agreeing with me? If so, why does he believe Jesus is a prophet? Was he disagreeing with me? How do I address his disagreement? What I did was ask him another theological question on the New Testament resolving the old one, but it felt like I got sideswiped there. What do you do when someone agrees with you, but does it in an empty and noncommital way? How could he sit on those contradictions without trying to resolve them? The argument by laziness?

This friend took a comparative religion course. He's interested in religions. But when I said that Jesus himself said something totally fake about the future, he is too lazy to care to ask more? I guess his brainwashing filters just went up, but what's a good way to dig through those without putting him on the defensive?

I don't think he cares too much about this argument... It looks to me like he wants something else...and he does not want an argument about prophets to stand in the way because he can forsee that it won't further his cause...
:grin:

02-06-2006, 04:27 PM	#1
starling Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Central Valley of California Posts: 1,761	The argument for "Uh... yeah" I got to debate with a Christian today! He's a weak Christian who should call himself atheist, but still has some tomfool notions, and is utterly adamant about them. Here is his argument, and I would like to know how to deal with this sort of argument if anyone has an idea. Me: Do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus? Him: I believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the only prophet. Me: So like he can tell the future? Him: He was one of the prophets, but there were more than one, but he was one of them. Me: I hear you. That argument got blown apart for me though, when I read the part of the bible where Jesus says "all this will happen in your lifetime" to the disciples. Him: Uh... yeah. Me: ... At that point I didn't know what to do. Was he agreeing with me? If so, why does he believe Jesus is a prophet? Was he disagreeing with me? How do I address his disagreement? What I did was ask him another theological question on the New Testament resolving the old one, but it felt like I got sideswiped there. What do you do when someone agrees with you, but does it in an empty and noncommital way? How could he sit on those contradictions without trying to resolve them? The argument by laziness? This friend took a comparative religion course. He's interested in religions. But when I said that Jesus himself said something totally fake about the future, he is too lazy to care to ask more? I guess his brainwashing filters just went up, but what's a good way to dig through those without putting him on the defensive?

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02-06-2006, 05:28 PM	#2
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	A prophet doesn't have to be able to tell the future. That's not really what the word means. I think maybe "uh...yeah" could be an acknowledgement that Jesus got the prediction wrong (at least literally) but that it didn't necessarily undermine his status as a prophet.

02-06-2006, 05:37 PM	#3
Garnet Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 6,610	It's pretty simple. Sounds like he doesn't know enough about his own religion to make a cogent response. Move along...nothing to see here.

02-06-2006, 05:37 PM	#4
rob117 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New York State Posts: 440	A prophet is a charismatic religious reformer who attempts to change the way people look at religion. Whether or not the message is genuine has nothing to do with the definition of prophet. For example, secular texts refer to Mohammed as "The Prophet Mohammed" all the time, simply because that is the title he is traditionally called by. Likewise, referring to Jesus as "Jesus Christ" is not necessarily an affirmation that Jesus is the Christ.

02-06-2006, 07:05 PM	#6
yummyfur Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 351	my guess, if he was a quasi atheist, he meant prophet as "A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression." second definition from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prophet his um..yeah, was becasue he was confused how your argument had anything to do with his original statement. you were talking at cross definitions, because you were using the third definition. So you would have to use other arguments that show maybe Jesus didn't really have any profound moral teachings for his time.

02-06-2006, 07:20 PM	#7
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	A prophet is someone who "channels" or interprets the word of God. It comes from a Greek word, prophetes, which means literally "before-teller." It's derived from prophanai, which means "to speak before" (or to speak for. i.e on behalf of). A prophetes is one who speaks on behalf of or interprets the will of the gods. This might involve divination or prediction but not necessarily. You can think a guy has a message from God without necessarily believing EVERYTHING he says is inspired. My guess, though, is that starling's friend just didn't have an answer and was dribbling the ball, hoping something would come to him.

02-07-2006, 04:33 AM	#9
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	A PROPHET is someone CLAIMING supernatural guidance in predicting the future. Did Mohamed have supernatural guidance? Of course NOT. Are his followers supernaturally guided? Of course NOT.

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