Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 01-09-2007, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

you're a first century Jew living after the Temple was destroyed. You've seen your family members murdered by the Romans. Your best friends committed suicide at Massada. Young Jewish children were wrapped in Torah scrolls and burned alive. Your grapevines have been destroyed and your house is burned to the ground and your wife ravished and decapitated and your children sold to slavery. You've heard of other messianic figures including the Samaritan Prophet and Theudas, and they were cut down. The Essenes were wiped out. The Romans are coming after you. Your synagogue has been destroyed and your rabbis were murdered, put to the sword.

Those FARGIN BASTAGES ROMANS!!! They destroyed the vineyards?

gnosis92 · 01-09-2007, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I just don't agree with this at all. For one thing "Christianity" was apparently never that popular among Jews anyway. It's real popularity was among non-Jews.

You, and others, keep confusing the subject of the story with the advocate for the religion.

The advocate for the religion does not have to be the subject of the story.

Mormonism was started by Joseph Smith, about a guy named Mormon. Mormon wasn't the advocate for the religion, Mormon was a fictional character.

Look at how popular the cult of Dionysus got, extremely so. Does that mean that Dionysus had to be real? Who were the advocates for the religion?

What is John the Baptist really was preaching about the coming of the Messiah, as I suspect that he was. If John the Baptist was preaching the coming of the Messiah, then people after the death of John the Baptist saying that the Messiah had come, and it was Jesus Christ, would not have even been in competition with JtB, they would have been building off of his momentum.

As I said, this topic of Jesus' histority repears like Daisys month after month in various forms. For example, b/c the Roman-Jewish wars, it's hard to say how popular Jesus was among the Jews, though it survived as the Ebionites to the third or fourth century. I am only interested on this one point, here is what Josephus says about John the Baptist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_baptist#Josephus

Josephus

Flavius Josephus in Jewish Antiquities book 18, chapter 5, paragraph 2 records the following:

Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him. (Whiston Translation) [1]

Now, would it be fair to say that since John the Baptist immediate followers know that he existed, they would have much more credibility in promoting him over a non-existent Jesus to a crowd?

Amaleq13 · 01-09-2007, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

So if he took on flesh, wouldn't would be converts ask for historical details?

The Heavenly Messiah took on flesh but of such a lowly nature that the demons who killed him had no idea.

The details of the Heavenly Messiah's incarnation as a slave are as irrelevant as they are unknown.

By focusing on the irrelevant, you are missing what is most vital in importance.

The Heavenly Messiah allowed himself to be sacrificed for your sins!

rlogan · 01-09-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

Now, would it be fair to say that since John the Baptist immediate followers know that he existed, they would have much more credibility in promoting him over a non-existent Jesus to a crowd?

Many have noted the false dichotomy, and to extend those:

There were quite a number of Jesus' that actually led battles against Romans or had purely religious followings. Josephus mentions many. Later of course we have Simon Bar Kochba who was believed by many to be the messiah and successfully ousted the Romans for a few years.

In this Hellanized mileau one has of course many other Gods and mystery religions to choose from - so it is indeed a false dichotomy to pretend the "choice" is between JBapt and some rendition of a mythic Jesus. What "appeals" to people is much more complicated subject than "he was alive or not".

But additionally, you have the time frame established in a way that puts Christianity much earlier and of a form differing from how I do. Can't speak for others.

But I see it as a very late first century beginning (a couple generations removed from JBapt). It is tautological that the mystical version appealed to certain people over any flesh-and-blood competitor. The ones that appealed to.

Certainly others would feel differently - and the variety of religions attests to that.

aa5874 · 01-09-2007, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

What we are talking about here is the use of the stories about Jesus by evangelicals.

They went and told people, "So and so healed people, rose the dead, walked on water, was crucified and came back to life, and floated up into heaven while people watched."

That's much easier to say about someone who never existed than it is to say about someone that did exist. For someone who did exist people will say "Thats' not what happened, I remember his sorry ass.. blah, blah..."

And the most important part of the story, ......all of them are dead now and Jesus is coming back, get ready!

Colander of Truth · 01-09-2007, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

What missionary for Christianity would believe that he never existed? Particularly one in the first century? Or even if he had doubts, why in the world would he think that this concession would be a successful missionary tool?

For $35 I will try my hand at your conversion.

Tangent · 01-09-2007, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

Another missionary tells you that there is this purely spiritual redeemer named "Yeshua" who never existed and never walked the earth, despite what other Christians have said (and confirmed by both Gospels and Pliny and Tacitus) and was crucified in the heavenly realms. Please follow us.

I'd love it if this is how Christians actually had to approach you. I might even take his pamphlet.

Malachi151 · 01-10-2007, 03:06 AM

gnosis92: The OP is simply wrong in how it presents the case.

#1) The Jesus movement was never that popular among Jews
#2) The OP mentions after the fall of Judea, after 70 CE, some 40 years after JtB had been killed and a whole lot of other stuff had gone on.
#3) We have no evidence that the Jesus movement either started around the area of Israel or was ever significant there. All the evidence shows that the Jesus movement started in the diaspora, among Hellenized Jews and "Gentiles" hundreds of miles away from anywhere JtB ever was.
#4) The OP doesn't recognize the reality of the religion. Its wasn't a competition between living people, and people didn't accept the religion based on which person they thought was most real. Paul, apparently, viewed Jesus as truly real, even though he had never seen him and seemingly only viewed him as a heavenly entity. These are "gods" after all that we are talking about, and no one had ever personally met any god, so why you think that people would care about this makes no sense to me.
#5) Even if people did care about it, the number of people who would have had first hand knowledge of JtB is minuscule and irrelevant. Maybe, MAYBE, we are talking about a thousands people here. In an area population by millions of people, all of which can only get their information by word of mouth, these things are meaningless.
#6) Its a lot easier to make a person who never existed out to be a god than one that did exist.
#7) Far as I know JtB never claimed to be a god or the son of God or to be able to perform miracles, he just baptized people and preached.
#8) The followers of Jesus obviously appropriated JtB into their message anyway, so from that perspective they weren't even in competition, JtB was used to reinforce belief in Jesus. "Oh, do you remember John the Baptist? Yes, well the Messiah that he was talking about has come, PRAISE JESUS!"

gnosis92 · 01-10-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

gnosis92: The OP is simply wrong in how it presents the case.

#1) The Jesus movement was never that popular among Jews
#2) The OP mentions after the fall of Judea, after 70 CE, some 40 years after JtB had been killed and a whole lot of other stuff had gone on.
#3) We have no evidence that the Jesus movement either started around the area of Israel or was ever significant there. All the evidence shows that the Jesus movement started in the diaspora, among Hellenized Jews and "Gentiles" hundreds of miles away from anywhere JtB ever was.
#4) The OP doesn't recognize the reality of the religion. Its wasn't a competition between living people, and people didn't accept the religion based on which person they thought was most real. Paul, apparently, viewed Jesus as truly real, even though he had never seen him and seemingly only viewed him as a heavenly entity. These are "gods" after all that we are talking about, and no one had ever personally met any god, so why you think that people would care about this makes no sense to me.
#5) Even if people did care about it, the number of people who would have had first hand knowledge of JtB is minuscule and irrelevant. Maybe, MAYBE, we are talking about a thousands people here. In an area population by millions of people, all of which can only get their information by word of mouth, these things are meaningless.
#6) Its a lot easier to make a person who never existed out to be a god than one that did exist.
#7) Far as I know JtB never claimed to be a god or the son of God or to be able to perform miracles, he just baptized people and preached.
#8) The followers of Jesus obviously appropriated JtB into their message anyway, so from that perspective they weren't even in competition, JtB was used to reinforce belief in Jesus. "Oh, do you remember John the Baptist? Yes, well the Messiah that he was talking about has come, PRAISE JESUS!"

Do you have any writings from any committed Pharisee or Saducee in Second Temple period in Judea to prove point #1?

mountainman · 01-11-2007, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

(and confirmed by both Gospels and Pliny and Tacitus) Please follow us.

When Pliny and Tacitus are perceived as interpolations it will become
evident that there is no "witness of anything christian", the second
century citations do not look good either:

109 - (interpolation/fraud)Tacitus (references in Annals XV)
112 - (interpolation/fraud)Plinius, Ep 10:97 - Pliny to Trajan
113 - (interpolation/fraud)Trajan to Pliny (rescript)
115? - (fraud) Trajan's order of the Martyrdom Ignatius
135? - (fraud) Hadrian Rescript to the pro-consul of Asia
150? - (fraud) Antonius Pius (emp:138-161) to the commune of Asia
167 - (interpolation/fraud) M.Antoninus "christian obstinacy" ref. (Med 11:3)

Eusebius did a very good job. He was an exceedingly clever literacist
and rhetorician; highly sponsored by imperial donations. The Gospels
do not get listed on the above list until we get into the fourth century.

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01-10-2007, 03:06 AM	#28
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	gnosis92: The OP is simply wrong in how it presents the case. #1) The Jesus movement was never that popular among Jews #2) The OP mentions after the fall of Judea, after 70 CE, some 40 years after JtB had been killed and a whole lot of other stuff had gone on. #3) We have no evidence that the Jesus movement either started around the area of Israel or was ever significant there. All the evidence shows that the Jesus movement started in the diaspora, among Hellenized Jews and "Gentiles" hundreds of miles away from anywhere JtB ever was. #4) The OP doesn't recognize the reality of the religion. Its wasn't a competition between living people, and people didn't accept the religion based on which person they thought was most real. Paul, apparently, viewed Jesus as truly real, even though he had never seen him and seemingly only viewed him as a heavenly entity. These are "gods" after all that we are talking about, and no one had ever personally met any god, so why you think that people would care about this makes no sense to me. #5) Even if people did care about it, the number of people who would have had first hand knowledge of JtB is minuscule and irrelevant. Maybe, MAYBE, we are talking about a thousands people here. In an area population by millions of people, all of which can only get their information by word of mouth, these things are meaningless. #6) Its a lot easier to make a person who never existed out to be a god than one that did exist. #7) Far as I know JtB never claimed to be a god or the son of God or to be able to perform miracles, he just baptized people and preached. #8) The followers of Jesus obviously appropriated JtB into their message anyway, so from that perspective they weren't even in competition, JtB was used to reinforce belief in Jesus. "Oh, do you remember John the Baptist? Yes, well the Messiah that he was talking about has come, PRAISE JESUS!"

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