Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 11-01-2007, 03:44 PM

What kind of God would make it difficult to evaluate evidence when he could easily make it easy for people to evaluate evidence, even easy for the average sixth grader? Almost all American teenagers believe that President Bush exists. One would think that a loving God would make it as obvious to people that he exists as he has made it that President Bush exists. Of course, that would take firsthand, tangible evidence, which is the most convincing kind of evidence, as my President Bush comment proves, and all religions conveniently never provide that kind of evidence because they are all false.

What Dave fails to realize is that the more obvious it becomes that the Bible is true based upon historical evidence, the more obvious it would become that the Bible is not true because it says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Minimalist · 11-01-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Well, while we're waiting, let's review known Egyptian history. The Hyksos, either by invasion (less likely) or by stepping in to fill a power-vacuum when the 14th Dynasty collapsed (more likely) set up their 15th Dynasty around 1650 BC. They were thrown out by Ahmose I around 1 century later.......

Let us also remember that the Hyksos were Canaanites by origin. But they were the rulers....not slaves. Of course, if you later need to write an inspirational story of your 'god' helping you out of a tight spot, what better way than to have a bunch of 'slaves' be liberated by his miracles? Ahmose I was fighting to evict the Hyksos. If someone had said to him "let my people go" his response would have been "GO! Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"

I guess you could postulate that amongst the Asiatic-Semitic Hyksos there were some proto-Hebrews who were amongst survivors who fled East from Egypt after the defeats suffered in the Theban-led war of liberation. The story of this flight could easily be subject to hyperbole and a self-justifying rewriting of history (all too common a feature), and so turned into the high-drama of Exodus with all the added features that would make it so satisfying when recounted around the camp-fires.

More or less consistent with Professor Israel Finkelstein's 7th century BC creation date for the Deuteronomistic history, Jack. Re-working of folk tales into a heroic narrative.

Lucretius · 11-02-2007, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sitamun

Dave, could you please do me a favor and read ANYTHING by a well known Egyptologist about the end of the Middle Kingdom and the arrival of the Hyksos in Egypt. Even granting the ludicrous 300 year difference, the Egyptians didn't have chariots or horses that the military used until near the end of the hyksos rule and into the eighteenth dynasty.

What will it take for you to realize that the entire chronology of Egyptian history does not rely on Champollion's one translation alone. There are several examples of letters and diplomatic correspondence between rulers. There are several other measurements as well. There is not a specific year by year dating system because there are many Egyptian pecularities that the dating system has to try and account for. It is not a easy task, nor one that Egyptologists take lightly.

Really Dave, is it too much to ask that you do some research about what your talking about?

*wow pretty ranty for a first post*

First of all welcome to IIDB
Secondly good post I wouldn't worry too much about it appearing "ranty" I think we have all felt like that at times when faced with "Creationist thinking ".

The problem is that Dave and other Creationists actually do believe that they have read something by a "WELL KNOWN EGYTPOTOLOGIST" ,they seem to think that Rohl is one and his 300 year revision of the chronology answers all the questions, so see no need to read anything else on the subject at all or even articles against Rohl's ideas .
It suits their argument (possibly only partially)and that's all that matters to them.

Johnny Skeptic · 11-02-2007, 06:35 AM

Now Dave, we are still waiting for you to tell us about the invasion of Egypt. I heard that you are going to produce a new Perry Mason movie that will be titled "The case of the missing invasion."

Sitamun · 11-02-2007, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy Jack

I guess you could postulate that amongst the Asiatic-Semitic Hyksos there were some proto-Hebrews who were amongst survivors who fled East from Egypt after the defeats suffered in the Theban-led war of liberation. The story of this flight could easily be subject to hyperbole and a self-justifying rewriting of history (all too common a feature), and so turned into the high-drama of Exodus with all the added features that would make it so satisfying when recounted around the camp-fires.

I could see that as a possibility. It's known that the Egyptians have "tweaked" their stories at times. They did turn the Battle of Kadesh into a great victory for Ramses, when at best it was a stalemate. Can you think of a better way for a defeated foreign government to gain an ultimate revenge upon the people who eventually cast them out?

Granted that the Egyptians really didn't record any event that was made themselves look bad, we do however have other archaeological records to piece together certain events. I think the fact that no archaeologist has been able to find any proof of about 100,000 to 1.5mil. people (or thereabouts, since there in no number creationist seem to agree on) wandering/camping the desert for 40 years is telling. I personally would think that a number that large would leave some trace of living. We know that evidence has been found in one of the oasis' of Egypt of smaller camps by soldiers. (There are articles on the subject I just don't feel like finding them).

However, if in the future we were to find said evidence I may concede my stance, granted on what the PROFESSIONALS say, not some whackjob I've never heard of in the field of Egyptology.

*Disclaimer: As an amateur Egyptologist, this blatant disreguard of logic, study, and evidence really ticks me off. Actually, to be perfectly honest and off topic, it was the Bibles "Egyptians are evil" and the teaching of it is what turned me off religion to begin with.

Minimalist · 11-02-2007, 09:43 AM

In the aftermath of the Six Day War in 1967, Israeli archaeologists descended on the oasis of Kadesh Barnea in the Sinai seeking evidence for the Israelites' sojourn there. They found nothing.

As noted by Prof. Amnon Ben Tor in Archaeology of Ancient Israel systematic excavations at Kadesh Barnea itself evidence was found of a third millenium site and then nothing until a 10th century BC fortress.

http://books.google.com/books?id=m1b...L0iYxEmTMpeRJc

First column...it's Google Books which does not allow selecting and copying specific portions of the text.

BTW, I take it that it is common for Dave to flee the field in these debates?

Pappy Jack · 11-02-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

.....BTW, I take it that it is common for Dave to flee the field in these debates?

As Mrs Jones's boy would say, it's not unusual.

If you look through some of the threads that Dave's started, you'll see a fair number that he appears to have abandoned. There are also others that were prompted by one of Dave's posts in another thread; here Dave may have posted a few times, but then disappeared from the radar, leaving a not inconsiderable number of points unanswered.

You can draw your own conclusions as to why this is. Maybe he just loses interest; maybe he forgets about them (he does spread himself very thinly as the resident Creo Expert on all things); maybe he simply has no meaningful response to the questions asked or the points made. There may be other reasons I haven't thought of.

Minimalist · 11-02-2007, 03:00 PM

In truth I find it very difficult to keep up with this board. There's a lot of traffic and when you check and find 3 pages of new messages it tends to remind me of my old inbox at work; when everything is a priority then nothing is a priority.

Perhaps Dave is a closet atheist who excels at the "shit and run" method of message boardism? :Cheeky:

-Jay- · 11-02-2007, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sitamun

I think the fact that no archaeologist has been able to find any proof of about 100,000 to 1.5mil. people (or thereabouts, since there in no number creationist seem to agree on) wandering/camping the desert for 40 years is telling. I personally would think that a number that large would leave some trace of living. We know that evidence has been found in one of the oasis' of Egypt of smaller camps by soldiers. (There are articles on the subject I just don't feel like finding them).

The number often tossed around is 2.5 million people by the time you factor in women, children, and the elderly and infirm. That's not a camp. It's a metropolis.

Welcome to the forums.

regards,

NinJay

-Jay- · 11-02-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

BTW, I take it that it is common for Dave to flee the field in these debates?

He often disappears for a while then returns with a rehash of previously flensed claims. Par for the course.
He was online about an hour ago, though. Maybe he's preparing an answer to Johnny Skeptic's question about the plagues.

regards,

NinJay

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11-01-2007, 03:44 PM	#311
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	What kind of God would make it difficult to evaluate evidence when he could easily make it easy for people to evaluate evidence, even easy for the average sixth grader? Almost all American teenagers believe that President Bush exists. One would think that a loving God would make it as obvious to people that he exists as he has made it that President Bush exists. Of course, that would take firsthand, tangible evidence, which is the most convincing kind of evidence, as my President Bush comment proves, and all religions conveniently never provide that kind of evidence because they are all false. What Dave fails to realize is that the more obvious it becomes that the Bible is true based upon historical evidence, the more obvious it would become that the Bible is not true because it says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

11-02-2007, 06:35 AM	#314
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Now Dave, we are still waiting for you to tell us about the invasion of Egypt. I heard that you are going to produce a new Perry Mason movie that will be titled "The case of the missing invasion."

11-02-2007, 09:43 AM	#316
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	In the aftermath of the Six Day War in 1967, Israeli archaeologists descended on the oasis of Kadesh Barnea in the Sinai seeking evidence for the Israelites' sojourn there. They found nothing. As noted by Prof. Amnon Ben Tor in Archaeology of Ancient Israel systematic excavations at Kadesh Barnea itself evidence was found of a third millenium site and then nothing until a 10th century BC fortress. http://books.google.com/books?id=m1b...L0iYxEmTMpeRJc First column...it's Google Books which does not allow selecting and copying specific portions of the text. BTW, I take it that it is common for Dave to flee the field in these debates?

11-02-2007, 03:00 PM	#318
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	In truth I find it very difficult to keep up with this board. There's a lot of traffic and when you check and find 3 pages of new messages it tends to remind me of my old inbox at work; when everything is a priority then nothing is a priority. Perhaps Dave is a closet atheist who excels at the "shit and run" method of message boardism? :Cheeky:

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