Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Peter Kirby · 12-07-2006, 11:33 AM

{There is evidence of the crucifixion of Jesus.} A claim, to be sure, but no less worthy of assent on sight than its opposite to those unfamiliar with the matter (and, in my opinion, most worthy of assent to those familiar).

{There is evidence of the mythical origin of the stories of the crucifixion of Jesus.} A claim, as well, and one not supported by the "dates/light" stuff.

(For starters, "The Bible does however firmly tie the crucifixion to the spring equinox" is false. What is firmly tied is the crucifxion and the Jewish Passover celebration.)

kind regards,
Peter Kirby

Berggy · 12-07-2006, 12:12 PM

Perhaps the true difference between mythology and fact lies within the aspect of there being a difference between the Jesus of the scriptures as opposed to the Jesus portrayed by The Roman Catholic Church and/or the church denominations.

gstafleu · 12-07-2006, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

{There is evidence of the mythical origin of the stories of the crucifixion of Jesus.} A claim, as well, and one not supported by the "dates/light" stuff.

I'm giving an interpretation that can serve as evidence: the victory of light over darkness equals Jesus' salvific death. Now you may not agree that that is evidence, but you'll have to say why not. Just saying no doesn't count.

Quote:

(For starters, "The Bible does however firmly tie the crucifixion to the spring equinox" is false. What is firmly tied is the crucifxion and the Jewish Passover celebration.)

Wikipedia: "which [passover] falls between nightfall on March 25 and nightfall on April 24," so I'm not sure I see your point. It is, just like easter, right after the spring equinox, so yes, the crucifixion is firmly tied to that date.

Gerard

andrewcriddle · 12-07-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Hercules probably comes to the Greek pantheon from Eastern religion, where he was a sun-god from a different culture, hence his birth on Dec. 25th.

The Greek pantheon subsumed the gods of many cultures.

Could someone give a source for the claim that Hercules was born on the 25th of December ?

Thank You

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 12-07-2006, 03:04 PM

Don't know about the reliability of this!

Quote:

So who else celebrated the 25th of December as the birth day of their gods before it was agreed upon as the birth day of Jesus (pbuh)? Well, there are the people of India who rejoice, decorate their houses with garlands, and give presents to their friends on this day. The people of China also celebrate this day and close their shops. The pagan god Buddha is believed to have been born on this day when the "Holy Ghost" descended on his virgin mother Maya. The great saviour and god of the Persians, Mithras, is also believed to have been born on the 25th of December long before the coming of Jesus (pbuh).
The Egyptians celebrated this day as the birth day of their great saviour Horus, the Egyptian god of light and the son of the "virgin mother" and "queen of the heavens" Isis. Osiris, god of the dead and the underworld in Egypt, the son of "the holy virgin", again was believed to have been born on the 25th of December.
The Greeks celebrated the 25th of December as the birthday of Hercules, the son of the supreme god of the Greeks, Zeus, through the mortal woman Alcmene. Bacchus, the god of wine and revelry among the Romans (known among the Greeks as Dionysus) was also born on this day.
Adonis, revered as a "dying-and-rising god" among the Greeks, miraculously was also born on the 25th of December. His worshipers held him a yearly festival representing his death and resurrection, in midsummer. The ceremonies of his birthday are recorde d to have taken place in the same cave in Bethlehem which is claimed to have been the birth place of Jesus (pbuh).
The Scandinavians celebrated the 25th of December as the birthday of their god Freyr, the son of their supreme god of the heavens, Odin.
The Romans observed this day as the birthday of the god of the sun, Natalis Solis Invicti ("Birthday of Sol the invincible"). There was great rejoicing and all shops were closed. There was illumination and public games. Presents were exchanged, and the slaves were indulged in great liberties. Remember, these are the same Romans who would later preside over the council of Nicea (325 AD.) which lead to the official Christian recognition of the "Trinity" as the "true" nature of God, and the "fact" that Jesus (pbuh) was born on the 25th of December too.
In Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Gibbon says: "The Roman Christians, ignorant of his (Christ's) birth, fixed the solemn festival to the 25th of December, the Brumalia, or Winter Solstice, when the Pagans annually celebrated the birth of Sol " vol. ii, p. 383.

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...?articleid=128

(Islamic site)

Gundulf · 12-08-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Now it can easily be deduced that all the supernatural events surrounding the characters called Jesus never occured, that is, the virgin birth, the temptation, the transfiguration, the miraculous events, casting out of devils, the resurrecction and the ascension.

Deduced from what assumption, to be specific? I could guess, but just to be clear so I can follow your thinking...

aa5874 · 12-08-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gundulf

Deduced from what assumption, to be specific? I could guess, but just to be clear so I can follow your thinking...

I have never seen a miracle, nor have anyone, to date, produced any credible data to support a miracle. No health problems, today, are the result of devils. I have never seen a dead rise after 4 days, nor has it been known that people can defy gravity without some external force.
And, I have never heard of a person with two totally different genealogies from the father's side.

Roger Pearse · 12-09-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, both Christmas and Easter are based on prior "pagan" festivals from the Roman Empire...

People say this, but I don't know of any actual evidence for the proposition, and in view of the attitude of the fathers to paganism it seems incredible.

Quote:

As for Christmas:

In Rome in 274 CE December 25th was declared The Birthday of the Invincible Sun

One hears this said a *lot*. But I got suspicious a while ago. I have not found any such statement recorded in antiquity. The first mention of the Dies natalis solis invicti is in the Chronography of 354, part 6. This is somewhat later than Christmas being celebrated on that date.

That said, I think it must be earlier than 354, and indeed before Constantine (unless anyone can imagine C. or his dynasty creating it). That it is late is clear from the number of races to be run on that date; the older festivals all have a set number. That Aurelian may have instituted it is possible -- he did institute agon solis (games of the sun), according to Jerome's translation of the Chronicon of Eusebius (see the entry for '275' AD (actually 274 since E. made a calculation error). But as the Calendar makes clear, these are celebrated in October.

Evidence, in short, is lacking. I looked at the collection of Roman calendars of the 1st century AD and before in Inscriptiones Italicae and none have anything for 25 Dec.

Quote:

Indeed the symbolism was that the sun died on December 22nd, and was reborn on December 25th.

Do you have an ancient source for this? There is remarkably little in the ancient literary sources for Sol Invictus (not finished yet, tho).

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 12-09-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I have never seen a miracle, nor have anyone, to date, produced any credible data to support a miracle....

Those of us with defective senses of humour probably wondered what else might be debunked with this claim. I've never seen *your* name. Perhaps that's evidence that you don't have one...

Sorry -- just my habit to listening to what people say instead of what they *mean*.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Thomas II · 12-10-2006, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

{There is evidence of the crucifixion of Jesus.} A claim, to be sure, but no less worthy of assent on sight than its opposite to those unfamiliar with the matter (and, in my opinion, most worthy of assent to those familiar).

{There is evidence of the mythical origin of the stories of the crucifixion of Jesus.} A claim, as well, and one not supported by the "dates/light" stuff.

(For starters, "The Bible does however firmly tie the crucifixion to the spring equinox" is false. What is firmly tied is the crucifxion and the Jewish Passover celebration.)

kind regards,
Peter Kirby

Peter,

Wouldn't there be a death sentence, a death certificate, any kind of record, archived somewhere?

Anything in Syria, maybe a memo sent to the legate Vitellius?

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12-07-2006, 11:33 AM	#11
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	{There is evidence of the crucifixion of Jesus.} A claim, to be sure, but no less worthy of assent on sight than its opposite to those unfamiliar with the matter (and, in my opinion, most worthy of assent to those familiar). {There is evidence of the mythical origin of the stories of the crucifixion of Jesus.} A claim, as well, and one not supported by the "dates/light" stuff. (For starters, "The Bible does however firmly tie the crucifixion to the spring equinox" is false. What is firmly tied is the crucifxion and the Jewish Passover celebration.) kind regards, Peter Kirby

12-07-2006, 12:12 PM	#12
Berggy Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: USA Posts: 43	Perhaps the true difference between mythology and fact lies within the aspect of there being a difference between the Jesus of the scriptures as opposed to the Jesus portrayed by The Roman Catholic Church and/or the church denominations.

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