andrewcriddle

I don't know how Mithraism infiltrated the military but events happening over a century before any evidence for such infiltration seem unlikely candidates.

Quite apart from the intrinsic plausibility or other-wise of the idea, what do you think is Plutarch's source here ? I find it difficult to see him having reliable information about a conection between Pompey resettling pirates in the 60's BCE and a late 1st century CE mystery religion.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle

http://www.answers.com/topic/ancient-rome

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/p.../crassus_3.htm

They were not "pirates"as if they were a minor group! It was the equivalent of capturing Drake!

This first CE mystery religion seems to have left a huge amount of evidence of its existence over the Empire! I assume people would have no problem with the idea that an infrastructure like that takes time to grow?

spin

That's interesting. What do you base the analysis on? Merely the amount of time?

A writer or informant who was from, or who had had contact with, one or more of the towns where the pirates had been resettled and met descendants or learnt that Mithraism there was due to the Cilician pirates who had been resettled there?

There is nothing untenable about the information and there is no reason to suppose any tendentiousness on Plutarch's part, other than perhaps a dislike of a foreign religion (which helps to cement the report). We know his religious position and this report gets no support from his religion, yet the report itself makes sense from what we know of Mithraism. It was from the east and was in a process of mutation. This can be seen from the Commagene which bordered both the Parthian empire and Cilicia.


spin

Ratel

For anyone

1. If there is no "genetic" connection between Asiatic Mithra and the Mithraism of Rome, what is the alternative hypothesis for the origin of Roman Mithraism? Why the name "Mithras"?

2. How long did it take from the beginning of Christianity until church buildings dedicated to that faith began appearing, as evidenced by archaeology?

mountainman

The basilicas went up in the fourth century:

Basilica of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem, Israel
Basilica of the Holy Apostles, Constantinople
Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls, Rome
Basilica of St. Peter, Vatican Valley, Rome
Basilica of St. Lorenzo, Rome
Basilica of St. Sebastiano
Basilica of St. Marcellino
Basilica of St. Pietro
Basilica of St. John, Laterano (over barracks of Maxentius' soldiers)
Basilica of St. Maxentius
Basilica of Santa Sophia
Basilica of St. Constantine, Rome

Anything before bullneck is currently tenditious, such as the
Dura-Europa citation of a "house church" and the recent
claims made about the Meggido site.


The "length of time" will depend upon when you postulate
christianity to have begun.

Roger Pearse

Well, cults were invented from time to time -- think of Serapis. How and why the cult was invented we do not know.

That it originates in Rome comes from the archaeology, all of which has a close link with people coming from Rome.

I'm not sure. Remember that Christianity was illegal, so constructing special purpose buildings was probably difficult, and buildings that we can identify as churches by their architecture is very difficult since, of course, any hall would do. (Mithras has these very distinctive subterranean temples).

A book on early Christian archaeology would probably give you what you want.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

spin

In one of the mysteries of the christian faith Mithraism came about through autogenesis. Synchretic Mithraism didn't develop on the edge of the Parthian empire in places like Commagene, nor was Mithraism popular throughout Asia Minor, despite it being evinced in the royal name Mithridates in various kingdoms. It's a mere stroke of luck that the two religions have the same deity and connections.

Our christian brethren don't like Mithraism and its relationship with christianity, especially the fact that christianity was likened to (eastern) solar deity religions. Over Mithras they tend to emulate mountainman on christianity.

Case in point, despite the fact that christianity was supposed to have come into existence in the 1st c. CE, physical structures that have survived are from several centuries after that date. We note how Andrew Criddle has difficulty dating Mithraism in Rome back before the middle of the 1st c., because physical manifestations of the religion didn't appear until later in the century. I would have thought it reasonable that evidence for Mithraism in Rome could go back well over a century before its physical manifestations. You wouldn't think it was tendentious if he said, "events happening over a century before any evidence for such infiltration seem unlikely candidates."

Mithraism lost. Christianity won. Winners tend to recreate the past in their own image, while erasing traces of those who were competitors, unless they could paint the competitor as pariah -- just think of the Pharisees who competed with christians for proselytes or the Jews in general, christ-killers.


spin

spin

Don't you love this innocently tendentious stuff?

The first gospel was written by someone apparently writing in Rome. He had a Roman name. Most of the earliest literature we have is related to Rome, "Clement of Rome", Marcion who was in Rome, Justin Martyr who lived much of his life and died in Rome. You can get the obvious connection with Rome. Even the earliest writer was a Roman citizen. The name "christian" was formed in a Latin speaking context...

Yes, we can manipulate the data too.

Mithras was in origin a Persian deity (he was also mentioned in the Indian Rig Veda). In the mid 1st c. BCE he was part of a syncretic pantheon in the Commagene, a realm on the western edge of the Parthian empire under Roman influence. The trajectory is relatively clear, although the exact details are obscure. The Romans were in this part of the east. Pompey defeated people among whom were Mithras worshippers. The Romans tended to bring back people and religions from the east which caused various eastern religions to spring up in Rome, transmogrified for the new context.


spin

Clivedurdle

When? Why?

Refusing to sacrifice to the emperor was treason!

And was there a uniform illegality over the centuries?

Clivedurdle

Arguable - it may in fact be not that well buried, but it has metamorphosed consideraby over the centuries. Knights Templar, Freemasons, cricket, high catholicism come to mind.

It probably touches on male archetypes.