FRC

Y'know, Mace, I went through this process a few years ago that you're describing. I had come to a point in my life where I felt that I was being compelled (by popular doctrines) to believe in a God that (here it comes) I could no longer approve of, a God representing an illogical organization of authority, and an explanation for reality and human nature that just DIDN'T MAKE SENSE.

It's that odd feeling of being like a lab animal in some kind of experiment; you're in the control of powerful forces that cannot be fought against and there is no escape. What you're seeking is a sense of freedom from this and the realization that your internal spiritual nature sees things a little differently than all the stuff you've been led to believe.

After making the leap myself to strict atheism, I discovered an interesting freedom that I had not anticipated. Yes, now I was an atheist, it's all nonsense, etc. But the concept of a universal intelligence or a transcendant conciousness that I was somehow still connected to could now be explored without all the fear and dread that I had formally felt. It was like I could now think about God in a more honest fashion, and come to realize that perhaps for the first time since I was a child, that I could consider a God who understood everything I felt, the goodness of my spirit/heart, and the sensitivity I felt at perhaps separating myself from Him. Suddenly, I began to see all the errors and depravity that organized religion is obssessed with; for the first time I felt I truly understood some of the concepts that Jesus talks about in the gospels.

And I was no longer afraid. Atheist or not. Agnostic or not. Progressive Christian or not. It no longer mattered. There were no more hoops to jump through, no more worrying about what my Christian friends thought of my change in outlook. In fact some of them were kind of fascinated, stirred by this new freedom of being able to consider God and metaphysics by not feeling inferior, not being afraid of lightning bolt retribution, nor any longer being the helpless laboratory animal.

I had grown up and realized my own spiritual worth. And whether I am atheist or agnostic for the rest of my days, the God that is just and trustable will still be there.
He will understand my plight, know that I have searched for that which is believable, is just, is honest. And he will understand. He's God.

Peace.

Thomas II

Well said !...Very well said...

Thomas II

Biff,
Well, it ain't Jesus. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with the man. Period.
Now, the Catholic Church, what they grew into, the inner politics, intrigue,
manipulations, murders, abuses, Inquisitions, hmmm...that is another story...
And all that has NOTHING to do with the man Jesus,with the figure of Jesus.
In fact, if Jesus would come to Earth now and show up in Rome, do you think he would be happy with what the Church has done for the last 1700 years?
Do you think for a moment that the Church is representative of what Jesus
was all about?
Do you think that Jesus would be pissed with Rome, with the way they have behaved and carried on with business for hundreds of years?
Do you think he would be happy about the way they have used his name to wage wars and commit all kinds of atrocities for ages?
Do you think Jesus would be ok with what Rome allowed to be done to thousands of children, (the sexual abuse) ?
Wasn't Jesus who said back then "Whomever screws with these children is screwing with me personally..." (basically).
Do you think that Jesus would come back and say :"Hey guys,well done!!"
Or would he come back and make his fit of rage on the temple steps look like a walk in the park??
So you see Biff, it ain't about Jesus. The man had balls the size of Cadillacs.
It's about the dogma created by the institution of the Catholic Church.
It is about the leadership of the Catholic Church, their power hunger, their greed, their arrogance, their sexual depravity, their violence, and their fear tactics.
In the end all that Jesus commanded them to do was to love/be good to each other...

jdlongmire

Mace, the question you should ask yourself is this:

Do I want to submit my life to God in absolute humility and do I have faith that God's sovereign will is greater than Man's best reasoning?

If yes, then let's start trying to reason together and search for answers.

If no, you should absolutely accept the rationale of this site. It will help comfort you as you make your decision.

There are very intelligent, thoughtful and sincere folk here with a very well thought out doctrine/rationale/worldview you can follow without fear.

- peace be unto you -

-JD

Lola

Hey Mace,

What FRC posted above is EXACTLY how I felt after I acknowledged to myself that I was an atheist. Prior to my deconverstion, I felt guilty for doubting and questioning my faith and for thinking that Christianity wasn't rational, but I had given God the benefit of the doubt for years.

There is a freedom and peace now that I'm an atheist in contrast to when I was a Xian. When Xians claim that a person experiences a sense of freedom and peace after accepting Christ as their savior, well, honestly, I never felt free or peaceful as a believer; I became more confused the deeper I got into the Bible and it was more :banghead: for me.

I lost nothing when I lost my faith.

-Lola

newtype_alpha

It's habitual isn't it? You've spent such a long time living with a certain set of beliefs that some of the mindsets of that belief still linger even after you have decided they are wrong. This is not unique to religion; I've met people who were raised by white supremacists who violently reject any form or racism and bigotry, but every once in a while they still catch themselves saying something like "... like the way you people are" in a deragatory way, then immediately feeling bad about it. It's conditioned into behavior so deeply that even when you consciously reject it, unconsciously it still lingers there like a cancer in remission.

It has been said that there are two ways a king can maintain control of his people: the first is love; he can take care of his people and reward them, entertain them and protect them so that they remain loyal out of love and devotion. The second is fear; he can brutalize them, he can plant spies in every corner of their society, he can oppress and terrorize them until the people are too afraid of him to ever defy his will. The best king is the one who can do a little bit of both; some follow him out of love and devotion, but at the same time they know that if they step out of line they'll be in a world of trouble. This covers all bases.

Christianity is arranged in such a way. Human beings are clever, and when faced with a hazard or threat that they can understand, given enough time they can and will find ways to remove that threat. The early church fathers were probably aware of this, and in order to maintain loyalty among their members, they threatened them with a hazard so illogical, so confounding, that no sane person could possibly understand it, let alone find a way to remove it. Out of fear of this mind-boggling hazard, the believer has no choice but to turn to the church itself who offers "salvation" from this invisible hazard, offered of course by a kingly figure who apparently loves them anyway. This can be justified by constructive abuse of scriptures that, properly interpretted, tend to say pretty much whatever they want them to say. (I.E. "God destroys the wisdom of the wise so they become fools," etc)

Really, you're not supposed to think about it or evaluate it, you're just supposed to force yourself to accept it. The only way to remain a Christian is to examine the belief system looking for reasons why it must be true.

Mace

You know I think there is way you can describe me: lukewarm.

I am lukewarm. That is it. All this time I've BEEN a Christian, just not the "heavenbound one". I've never been Agnostic I don't think I even am now. Just a lukwarm Christian that has doubts from time to time.

But I'm sure you all agree that: I can't move back and forth. I can't go from an unbeliever to a believer.

It's got to stop because I'm tearing myself up and I don't deserve to tear myself up so emotionally.

I've got a King James Bible in my room from the days of going to the radical Pentocostal Churches. (Even though I turned Baptist.) I think I'm going to read it. That's the best book isn't it? The Bible. That is the half of the arguement here. That'll decide it for me. (No not the whole Bible since I don't have time.) I think I'll read the gospels since that seems to be where my conflict is.

epepke

Many, you must have a head like Hey, Arnold! Mine is a bit bigger than a Bocce ball. Also, it's pink. By the time it's grey, there's not much to do any more.

newtype_alpha

Just out of curiosity, which gospel do you plan to start with?

sharon45

How familiar are you with the bible? Jesus made hell a supposed reality. Even though he acts like god is the one who sends people to hell, you will never find any such real reference to this in the entire OT. It's not god who is the king in luke 19:11-27 and its not god in charge in matthew 25:31-46. These represent jesus.
Jesus gave the church his blessing afterall. He did start it and he would know well ahead of time what would come about wouldn't he, since he is suppose to be a prophet. So you really believe that jesus has no issues of abuses and manipulations attached to him? I would always have to ask, how familiar are you with the bible?
Of course jesus wouldn't be satisfied with the church, but it is still all his responsibility anyway. Just read matthew 18:18. Jesus passed out a lot of conflicting messages that he refused to truly explain. He wasn't even satisfied with his own teachings within the NT, so jesus' judgment is not much of something to hold as near trustworthy. One fact he should be very pleased about is that christianity adds more than 30 million to its fold every year, even though this is hardly accomplished using his teachings.
Yes, he did have abundant gall, but that is not exactly much of a real character trait for one trying to pass himself off as a honest humble servant. Besides, it was all a front that so many, including yourself apparently, took as real.
Finally, really how fimilar are you with the bible?