Freethought & Rationalism Archive

4321lynx · 06-09-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Judas' discussions with the Jewish leaders about betraying Jesus?

Ah.... But you have not seen the secret files on Jesus & Judas compiled by Mossad.....

:devil1:

4321lynx · 06-09-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Exodus and conquest of Canaan.

Yes. Especially Exodus. Poor Jews were probably blamed for causing the plagues in Egypt & banished, expelled from the country. No way a mob of men, women, children, goats, sheep, could have escaped from the Egyptian troops along well-known caravan routes to long-used Egyptian mines in the Sinai peninsula. So the Sea of Reeds becomes the Red Sea & a miracle is declared. All the Egyptians were interested in was to see that mob leave their country. And Moses was likely an Egyptian (Ahmose) monotheist escaping with them, having previously travelled that way,. {Ahmose= common Egyptian name then, Moses was not a Jewish name at that time}. Later, the story was rewritten to make it politically correct from the Jewish point of view. So, fiction? At least in part.
Anyway that is the word of the lord according to Lynx...:Cheeky:

Deus Ex · 06-09-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

What I'm looking for here are events in the Bible that, in the way they are portrayed, reveal that they are almost surely the product of an author's invention, since there is likely no way anyone writing them down could have known about them.

Anybody who was a participant in any event could have told somebody about it afterward, and that person could have told someone else, and so on until the story got to the author of whatever book the story appears in.

Not saying that I think it actually happened in every case, but in principle it could have.

The only instance in which I think it's a reach would be Jesus' Gethsemane prayer. Unless we accept the resurrection as factual, it's hard to see where he would have had the opportunity to tell anyone what he said on that occasion.

A christian once told me that the 'naked guy', who fled at Jesus' arrest in Mark's Gospel, was the one that overheard Jesus' prayer at Gethsemane.

Roland · 06-09-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

See my article here: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

I argue for everything being a fictional invention, but provide specific arguments for basically every line in the Gospel. There are very good criteria that can be used to argue for fiction, as you will see.

I generally agree with your observations. What I guess I was getting at was some incident that, by its very nature, would HAVE to be invention, such as a story about the last moments of some person who died alone, out of sight of all potential witnesses - like a dramatization of the final moments at the Alamo, for instance. I realize that that certainly limits the possible examples.

The creation story, by its very nature, I suppose, fits that criterion.

Minimalist · 06-09-2008, 08:12 PM

Was there a stenographer at "jesus'" trial?

Malachi151 · 06-09-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

See my article here: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

I argue for everything being a fictional invention, but provide specific arguments for basically every line in the Gospel. There are very good criteria that can be used to argue for fiction, as you will see.

I generally agree with your observations. What I guess I was getting at was some incident that, by its very nature, would HAVE to be invention, such as a story about the last moments of some person who died alone, out of sight of all potential witnesses - like a dramatization of the final moments at the Alamo, for instance. I realize that that certainly limits the possible examples.

The creation story, by its very nature, I suppose, fits that criteria.

There are some lines in the Gospels that talk about things that Jesus said or did while he was alone with no one else there. So, those fall into that category.

There are similar lines in the OT about various prophets. But, basically the entire Torah (except for the parts he is directly involved in) is supposed to have been revealed to Moses by God, so under that criteria everything is fair game since he's supposed to have knowledge of the events from God, not from direct observation.

Roland · 06-09-2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

I generally agree with your observations. What I guess I was getting at was some incident that, by its very nature, would HAVE to be invention, such as a story about the last moments of some person who died alone, out of sight of all potential witnesses - like a dramatization of the final moments at the Alamo, for instance. I realize that that certainly limits the possible examples.

The creation story, by its very nature, I suppose, fits that criteria.

There are some lines in the Gospels that talk about things that Jesus said or did while he was alone with no one else there. So, those fall into that category.

There are similar lines in the OT about various prophets. But, basically the entire Torah (except for the parts he is directly involved in) is supposed to have been revealed to Moses by God, so under that criteria everything is fair game since he's supposed to have knowledge of the events from God, not from direct observation.

Good point, though I guess one could argue that even those things Jesus said privately he could have relayed to the disciples afterward. Maybe my original inquiry is a fairly hopeless one after all. :huh:

Solitary Man · 06-09-2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Stable Flux

The story of 'Jesus and the woman taken in adultery' was added later to The Gospel of John and is fictional. This is admitted in in the NIV Bible with the statement "The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11" before the passage. Wikipedia, which I've lately realised is perhaps the most backward-thinking website for knowledge about the Bible, admits there is significant evidence for the passage being inauthentic. The story is stated by nearly all scholars to be an inauthentic redaction inserted much later than the 1st or 2nd century.

I think you err. That it isn't original to John is, of course, correct, but it is an early tradition, and thus isn't obviously fictional. Could be, I happen to think it is, but you cannot confuse the two conclusions based on the sequence of logic you had given.

aa5874 · 06-09-2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

What I'm looking for here are events in the Bible that, in the way they are portrayed, reveal that they are almost surely the product of an author's invention, since there is likely no way anyone writing them down could have known about them.

Does Luke 1.26 qualify?

Luke 1.26, "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth."

Did the angel Gabriel have an ID?

How do you know angels are sent from God ?

How did the author confirm these things?

Chili · 06-09-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

[
How do you know angels are sent from God ?

How did the author confirm these things?

The nature of the event makes that a necessity which is based on Gen.1, 2 and 3.

Gabriel is the only angel from God and the rest are from Mary who is the wherewhithal of God.

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06-09-2008, 08:12 PM	#15
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Was there a stenographer at "jesus'" trial?

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