Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrMacSon · 04-26-2013, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Yes, you have confirmed that Jesus was alive when the Gospels say he was alive.

This has been accepted as a historical fact by Christians and educated non-Christians for almost 2000 years.

Nothing confirms the Gospel stories.

That Christians generations after the gospel stories surfaced believed those stories does not make them true.

Even the first christian communities - within 1, 2 or 3 generations - may not have known where the stories came from.

Iskander · 04-26-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Technically speaking it is not forced conversion, i.e. dragging men to be circumcised and holding a sword over them when they ate food to make sure it was kosher. It was more a case of voluntarily conversion with no other choice available, as was apparently only done among the elites of the Edomites. However, all rabbinical sources have condemned this type of conversion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Antigonus belonged to the Hasmonean dynasty, his uncle was Hyrcanus II.
Herod came from an Idumean family and the Idumeans had been forcibly converted to Judaism by John Hyrcanus. Forcible conversion is the very thing that Christians and Islam were later accused of doing to Judaism.

Duvduv

I consider this lecture a valuable addition to my gentile education. It is different with you, but you might want to listen to it if you haven’t done it before.

The lecturer discuses Antipater, Herod, Antigonus and others, and I think the speaker is very good.

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/med...se-of-Rome.htm

Pharisees, Sadducees and the rise of Rome

maryhelena · 04-26-2013, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I totally agree, and therefore wonder precisely how much of these authors' texts were "Christianised" by the Christian operators who preserved the texts. Eusebius certainly thought that Josephus witnessed the appearance of Christ in the "TF", and likelwise certainly thought that Philo witnessed the earliest Christian monastic cult around Alexandria with the description of the "therapeutae" in "Vita Contemplativa".

We now know that Eusebius was indulging in common forgery mistaken on both counts.

Do you happen to know whether Eusebius mentions the Hasmonean/Jewish history at all, and if so, what he reports of it?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

No, don't know re Eusebius and Hasmonean/Jewish history....

Actually, by the time of Eusebius, to my thinking anyway, the gospel JC story was up and running. Whatever, if any, changes were made to that story - it's central premise, a Jewish messiah figure was executed by Rome - remains. That is the premise of the gospel JC story that reflects actual Hasmonean/Jewish history.

Quote:

At the suggestion of Herod, who was afraid to allow Antigonus to be taken to Rome in the triumphal train of Mark Antony, lest he should there successfully plead for his rights, this last king of the Hasmonean house was taken to Antioch, and there fell beneath the executioner's ax. It was the first time that the Romans had ever thus put a king to death. The last king of pure Jewish blood fell before the intrigues of the first king of Judea not entirely of Jewish birth.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...nus-mattathias

Mary,
Many historical Jewish messiah figures were executed by Rome in the first century CE aside from the fictional JC of the gospels.
Onias

Please provide the names of the historical Jewish, messiah, figures you say were executed by Rome in the first century CE - and very important - please provide the historical evidence for the figures you are referencing. Vague statements do not offer anything whatsoever......

Also, please demonstrate a link between your proposed historical figures to the composite gospel JC figure.

mountainman · 04-27-2013, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

It is what people believe when they vote which makes a government, when that belief re-elects the standing government, the people are confirming the existence of the recent history.

The beliefs in virginal mothers who bring forth the son of god have a long history in every community and enjoy strong electoral support. The voters should be offered a choice and campaigning should be energetic and fair.

I thank you, mountainman, maryhelena and others , for your efforts towards educating the electorate

People in antiquity did not vote for Jesus the Son of a God or Constantine the Emperor of Rome.

HA HA HA HA HA.

Good point aa5874.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Onias · 04-27-2013, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Mary,
Many historical Jewish messiah figures were executed by Rome in the first century CE aside from the fictional JC of the gospels.
Onias

Please provide the names of the historical Jewish, messiah, figures you say were executed by Rome in the first century CE - and very important - please provide the historical evidence for the figures you are referencing. Vague statements do not offer anything whatsoever......

Also, please demonstrate a link between your proposed historical figures to the composite gospel JC figure.

The 2 sons of Judas the Galilean, Simon and James, Theudas, Menahem, Anthronges, John the Baptizer, are a few that come to mind from Josephus and http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah...aimants00.html

Many of these were aspiring to be the messiah, as was Jesus. Most on the list wanted the Romans out of Judaea. None were successful to be King of Jews (except Vespasian, if I may be cynical).

maryhelena · 04-27-2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Mary,
Many historical Jewish messiah figures were executed by Rome in the first century CE aside from the fictional JC of the gospels.
Onias

Please provide the names of the historical Jewish, messiah, figures you say were executed by Rome in the first century CE - and very important - please provide the historical evidence for the figures you are referencing. Vague statements do not offer anything whatsoever......

Also, please demonstrate a link between your proposed historical figures to the composite gospel JC figure.

The 2 sons of Judas the Galilean, Simon and James, Theudas, Menahem, Anthronges, John the Baptizer, are a few that come to mind from Josephus and http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah...aimants00.html

Many of these were aspiring to be the messiah, as was Jesus. Most on the list wanted the Romans out of Judaea. None were successful to be King of Jews (except Vespasian, if I may be cynical).

Onias

Lets get real here! I asked for names of historical figures that you think are relevant to the composite gospel JC figure and to his story. I asked that you provide evidence for any figure that you claim was a historical figure.

You have failed to do that. You cannot provide any historical evidence that the figures you referenced above were historical figures. All you have got are stories in Josephus. Until you can establish historicity for the figures you have named - these names have no relevance for a search for early christian origins. They have no relevance for the composite figure of the gospel JC.

The gospel story is a story - it's necessary to get beyond the stories if searching for early christian origins is our aim. History, Hasmonean/Jewish history - is the road forward - not Josephan stories about figures for which we have no historical evidence.

Onias · 04-27-2013, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

The 2 sons of Judas the Galilean, Simon and James, Theudas, Menahem, Anthronges, John the Baptizer, are a few that come to mind from Josephus and http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah...aimants00.html

Many of these were aspiring to be the messiah, as was Jesus. Most on the list wanted the Romans out of Judaea. None were successful to be King of Jews (except Vespasian, if I may be cynical).

Onias

Lets get real here! I asked for names of historical figures that you think are relevant to the composite gospel JC figure and to his story. I asked that you provide evidence for any figure that you claim was a historical figure.

You have failed to do that. You cannot provide any historical evidence that the figures you referenced above were historical figures. All you have got are stories in Josephus. Until you can establish historicity for the figures you have named - these names have no relevance for a search for early christian origins. They have no relevance for the composite figure of the gospel JC.

The gospel story is a story - it's necessary to get beyond the stories if searching for early christian origins is our aim. History, Hasmonean/Jewish history - is the road forward - not Josephan stories about figures for which we have no historical evidence.

You quote from Josephus in the chart on the OP! If you don't accept Josephus as an historian (although biased at times), who do you accept?
Onias

maryhelena · 04-27-2013, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

The 2 sons of Judas the Galilean, Simon and James, Theudas, Menahem, Anthronges, John the Baptizer, are a few that come to mind from Josephus and http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah...aimants00.html

Many of these were aspiring to be the messiah, as was Jesus. Most on the list wanted the Romans out of Judaea. None were successful to be King of Jews (except Vespasian, if I may be cynical).

Onias

Lets get real here! I asked for names of historical figures that you think are relevant to the composite gospel JC figure and to his story. I asked that you provide evidence for any figure that you claim was a historical figure.

You have failed to do that. You cannot provide any historical evidence that the figures you referenced above were historical figures. All you have got are stories in Josephus. Until you can establish historicity for the figures you have named - these names have no relevance for a search for early christian origins. They have no relevance for the composite figure of the gospel JC.

The gospel story is a story - it's necessary to get beyond the stories if searching for early christian origins is our aim. History, Hasmonean/Jewish history - is the road forward - not Josephan stories about figures for which we have no historical evidence.

If you don't accept Josephus as an historian (although biased at times), who do you accept?
Onias

For the period relevant to the gospel story - we have to deal with the Josephan writer. We either accept what he writes as factual - or we require that his stories get checked out. In such an important question as to the historicity of the gospel JC - its necessary to deal with the history that can be established. Getting side-tracked into stories in Josephus about figures for which there is no historical evidence - is just that - getting side-tracked from the history we do have.

That is the purpose of the OP chart. Dealing with Hasmonean/Jewish history that is known. Dealing with historical figures for which there is evidence - the Hasmonean/Herodian coins.

The alternative? Characters, figures, in Josephan stories. The gospel JC is a figure in a story. Why accept JC as a figure in a story - and leave the Josephan writer free to run his own storyline...The way past all the stories - is to use, reference, the figures that we know to have been historical figures.

maryhelena · 04-27-2013, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

The 2 sons of Judas the Galilean, Simon and James, Theudas, Menahem, Anthronges, John the Baptizer, are a few that come to mind from Josephus and http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah...aimants00.html

Many of these were aspiring to be the messiah, as was Jesus. Most on the list wanted the Romans out of Judaea. None were successful to be King of Jews (except Vespasian, if I may be cynical).

Onias

Lets get real here! I asked for names of historical figures that you think are relevant to the composite gospel JC figure and to his story. I asked that you provide evidence for any figure that you claim was a historical figure.

You have failed to do that. You cannot provide any historical evidence that the figures you referenced above were historical figures. All you have got are stories in Josephus. Until you can establish historicity for the figures you have named - these names have no relevance for a search for early christian origins. They have no relevance for the composite figure of the gospel JC.

The gospel story is a story - it's necessary to get beyond the stories if searching for early christian origins is our aim. History, Hasmonean/Jewish history - is the road forward - not Josephan stories about figures for which we have no historical evidence.

You quote from Josephus in the chart on the OP! If you don't accept Josephus as an historian (although biased at times), who do you accept?
Onias

This is what I wrote in the OP.

Quote:

Historical artefacts, such as coins, are testimony to the fact that certain individuals were historical figures. That is the bare bones of historical evidence. However, history requires a story; a narrative, to joins up the facts and present a meaningful picture. The picture could be cloudy and unclear or it could be a reasonable explanation of what happened. In the chart that follows, Josephus is the primary source for building that historical narrative. Did Josephus himself, writing after the events, have accurate material to work with? Or is Josephus creating his own narrative - and without a secondary source there is no way to be sure. All one can do is work with his material and question his story when it presents problems.

Step One: Establish historicity for a figure.
Step Two: Deal with the stories about that figure.

With the list you referenced above - you are going to Step Two - you are dealing with stories without first establishing historicity for your figure.

Onias · 04-27-2013, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

If you don't accept Josephus as an historian (although biased at times), who do you accept?
Onias

For the period relevant to the gospel story - we have to deal with the Josephan writer. We either accept what he writes as factual - or we require that his stories get checked out. In such an important question as to the historicity of the gospel JC - its necessary to deal with the history that can be established. Getting side-tracked into stories in Josephus about figures for which there is no historical evidence - is just that - getting side-tracked from the history we do have.

That is the purpose of the OP chart. Dealing with Hasmonean/Jewish history that is known. Dealing with historical figures for which there is evidence - the Hasmonean/Herodian coins.

The alternative? Characters, figures, in Josephan stories. The gospel JC is a figure in a story. Why accept JC as a figure in a story - and leave the Josephan writer free to run his own storyline...The way past all the stories - is to use, reference, the figures that we know to have been historical figures.

Mary,
So you do not accept that Josephus is writing about historical people unless there are also coins minted in their image?
Onias

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