River

I have spoken with a learned Hafez ( expert on Quranic law and recitation) from Senegal. He confirmed that it is the wife that chooses the 2nd or subsequent wives for her husband. However, if the man flouts Islamic law, or out of negligence....that is indeed another story....


---River

DMB

Please provide a reference.
I have no idea what you mean by "in terms of practicality". If you mean "in practice", it just isn't so. For example, when it comes to giving evidence in court, the word of a woman is worth half as much as the word of a man. The word of a muslim is worth more than that of an infidel.

A practical result of ideas like these is that it is virtually impossible for a woman to prove that she has been raped. By making the charge, however, she is admitting that she has been a participant in unlawful sex (zinna). The result is that many rape victims have been imprisoned. In the case of Amina Lawal, she was sentenced to death by stoning for becoming pregnant when not married. The man she said was the father, who she claimed raped her, simply denied that he had had anything to do with it and his word was accepted. And yet DNA testing could have established whether or not he was the father. Of course, the koran doesn't mention DNA, so that's all right! It was only when there was a huge international outcry that Lawal was spared.

You have only to look at what happens under the Pakistani law against blasphemy to see how it is stacked against non-muslims, who are sentenced to death on the most ridiculous allegations.

With regard to equality before the law of men and women, it doesn't look like equality to me to lay down that a woman is only entitled to inherit half as much as her brother.

River

while I am not an expert on Islamic legislation ....I will address the points here that I am familiar with.

1) The term " infidel" is not found in the Quran. It may have been used amongst certain Islamic circles but it is most probably a term that has been borrowed from the crusades/crusaders. The Quran does use the word " Kaffir" which translates "to conceal"/disbeliever". So what is a disbeliever? We know for a fact that the Quran has granted special status to the Christians, Jews, Magians, and Sabeans as " People of the Book". And as Muslims we are expected to protect the People of the Book and their places of worship. Also, a Muslim hypocrite can also be a "Kaffir". Thus, declaring someone a "Kaffir" is not a clear cut statement. There has been many people who open up the Quran and read Surah Baqara (ch 2) and they see the translation " infidel" ...and they choke.....however, given the circumstances and leeway for the definition....it is highly unlikely that the reader is the "disbeliever " or "infidel"...and one should not assume so. So who is the "Kaffir"....it is the person who is aggressively and actively attacking the Prophet and his message.

2) In the case of Amina Lawal ...stoning has been prescribed for her. That is quite tragic because the Quran doesn't even mention stoning. Thus, modern Muslim countries i.e Nigeria ..that state they are operating under Shariah ( Islamic Law) are not.......there is no such concept of stoning in the Quran.

---River

Ben Willott

So, up to this point you maintain that 'kaffir' is an imprecise umbrella term, even extending to some muslims. Yet here:

You assert that a 'kaffir' is in fact a specific term applying to those who aggressively and actively attack the prophet and his message. This last definition is incompatible with your earlier assertions, since the muslim hypocrite is not aggressively and actively attacking the prophet and his message.

While we are on the subject of attacks, it's worth pointing out that since islam brooks no compromise (as do many other religions), any opposition to any part of it is automatically an attack upon all of it. This is inevitable whenever you claim that the source of all your laws and beliefs is divine and therefore perfect (as the majority of muslims worldwide are taught).

Thus the term 'kaffir' embraces anyone opposed to any part of islam (whichever islam you choose/have been brainwashed to follow, according to interpretational whim).

demoninho

That's right the quran only prescribes a 100 lashes, for surely allah, is great allah is merciful

24:2 The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

and a husband doesn't even need any witnesses to accuse his wife of adultry

24:6 As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;

But swearing to allah that he speaks the truth surely is enough to prevent any injustices

With special status you of course mean a highly discriminated against group? Well I guess that still a lot better than the treatment of poly- and atheists who don't even have a right to live.

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[...]

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

River

1) 100 lashes is no different than what is practiced in Singapore [ a non-Muslim country]

Besides whats wrong with you, why are you endorsing adultery ?

2) What is an "idolater"? Are the Hindus polytheistic? According to the ancient sufi Muslims, the title " People of the Book" was extended to Hindus as well. The titles of the many "symbolic deities" are looked upon as the equivalent to the 99 names of Allah, according to Sufi theorists. So who is an idolater? An idolater is one who commits shirk or associates partners with G-d. Idolatry can be associating nafs (ego), fanatical patriotism, materialism, or anything else that preoccupies the majority of your thoughts and dedications. Also, many of the OT style combative verses in the Quran are not referring to the modern time period....it was referring to the Dark Ages where the Meccan Quraish opposition tried extinguish the new emerging Muslim community....many times to the point of extinction.....thus a new Revelation asked the "Muslims" to defend their natural right to defend themselves and their property.


---River

River

" The House of War " and " Dar Al- Islam" [ The House of Islam] are war philosphies that emerged during the reign of the Ottomon empire. It is however, not in use amongst mainstream Islam or the vast majority of 1.6 Billion Muslims. It is currently used, though by militant groups such as Al-Qaeda [ "The Cell"] and the Taaliban.


----River

Ben Willott

River, my last post was not solely descriptive of fundamentalists. Many so called moderates see opposition as an attack upon islam. It is part and parcel of a religion that must have its own way, full stop.

Also, criticizing the punishment doled out by some states/religions for adultery is hardly the same as endorsing adultery.

River

you are correct, however....many atheist usually see Muslims and Christians as an obstacle and they become overly sensitive...thus they seize the perfect opportunity to attempt to debililate their arguments.....

Unfortunately, this is human nature....humans in general seem to buttress one side or another. There is no impartiallity.

--River

River

I am detaching from this thread for an indefinite period of Time.


ON HIATUS
RIVER