Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 03-03-2005, 03:19 PM

In this post in E/C, WILLOWTREE tells us that Noah was able to gather and control all the animals because he possessed the animal skin cloak which God made for Adam when he was expelled from the Garden. This cloak was supposed to have been passed on to Nimrod, also.

Now, while I'm not the Biblical scholar many of those who frequent this forum are, neither am I a Biblical ignoramus. I've read the Apocrypha and much of the pseudopigraphica. However, this is the first time I've ever heard of any such thing- so I'd like to ask, has anyone here ever heard this legend?

WILLOWTREE · 03-03-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobar

In this post in E/C, WILLOWTREE tells us that Noah was able to gather and control all the animals because he possessed the animal skin cloak which God made for Adam when he was expelled from the Garden. This cloak was supposed to have been passed on to Nimrod, also.

Now, while I'm not the Biblical scholar many of those who frequent this forum are, neither am I a Biblical ignoramus. I've read the Apocrypha and much of the pseudopigraphica. However, this is the first time I've ever heard of any such thing- so I'd like to ask, has anyone here ever heard this legend?

The claim is made in the Book of Jasher. (Joshua 10:13; 1Samuel 1:18)

http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html

http://asis.com/~stag/heroes/noah.html

I also own a copy of the book.

Want to hear a more interesting claim than this ?

WT

WILLOWTREE · 03-03-2005, 03:49 PM

http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/7.htm

"And in their going out, Ham stole those garments from Noah his father, and he took them and hid them from his brothers.

And when Ham begat his first born Cush, he gave him the garments in secret, and they were with Cush many days.

And Cush also concealed them from his sons and brothers, and when Cush had begotten Nimrod, he gave him those garments through his love for him, and Nimrod grew up, and when he was twenty years old he put on those garments.

And Nimrod became strong when he put on the garments, and God gave him might and strength, and he was a mighty hunter in the earth, yea, he was a mighty hunter in the field, and he hunted the animals and he built altars, and he offered upon them the animals before the Lord."

WT

yummyfur · 03-03-2005, 03:54 PM

The only cloak I know off associated with Noah, is the one Shem and Japheth covered him with when he got shitfaced drunk and was passed out naked. It was Ham seeing him naked that got his offspring, Canaan cursed to be slaves.

Toto · 03-03-2005, 04:23 PM

From a previous thread: Book of Jasher - I get the idea that this Book is a modern forgery.

That is also the conclusion of this webpage: from Modern Apocrypha, Famous "Biblical" Hoaxes: Book of Jasher

Javaman · 03-03-2005, 04:39 PM

This is what appears to be an interesting short piece although, since I can't read Hebrew, I'm not getting the full picture:

JASHER, BOOK OF By : Emil G. Hirsch M. Seligsohn - From the Jewish Encyclopedia.

spin · 03-03-2005, 04:47 PM

Try this one from the E.J. which is on the topic and indicates that the earliest copy we have comes from 1552 and says that it is "one of the latest works of the midrashic Haggadah", ie it seems to be a late Jewish work.

spin

yummyfur · 03-03-2005, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

The claim is made in the Book of Jasher. (Joshua 10:13; 1Samuel 1:18)

http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html

http://asis.com/~stag/heroes/noah.html

I also own a copy of the book.

Want to hear a more interesting claim than this ?

WT

I beleive this so called Book of Jasher, possibly created in the 16-17th century, which is the oldest date of it so called copying(it could be older but netherless is still considered at earliest, a 13th century medieval jewish work by most scholars). Unfortunaly the text mentions both France and Lombardy so it's ancientness is pretty questionable. There is a book of Jasher refereneced in Joshua and Samuel, but this is not it.

leccy · 03-03-2005, 04:49 PM

So more like the "Book Of Josher" then?

Jobar · 03-03-2005, 04:50 PM

Interesting.

Doing a bit of searching I found this Mormon site:

Quote:

There seems to be no doubt in anyone's mind that the book contains many authentic Hebrew traditions.[12] It is definitely not a forgery in the sense of being a modern fiction, as was the 1751 book of the same name. Ginzberg in his landmark collection Legends of the Jews quotes from it freely[13] and it is listed in Jewish encyclopedias as an authentic source.[14] But all of these sources agree that the Book of Jasher most likely was written in Spain about the twelfth century A.D. It is thought to have been composed by an author compiling many old Jewish traditions (called Midrash) dating back to around the time of Christ and fabricating a few of his own. So how is it known that Jasher is quoting Midrash rather than Midrash quoting the real Book of Jasher also quoted in the Old Testament? It is deduced principally from the chapter describing where the descendants of Noah settled, because European names from many centuries after Christ are included (Jasher 10). In other words, the principles of higher criticism apparently require that if a few verses are found in the work which can definitely be dated to the eleventh century in Spain, then the entire work must have been authored at that time.
...
The translator of the 1840 edition agrees because he maintained that this book is indeed the book mentioned in the Old Testament. He concludes, "the book is, with the exception of some doubtful parts, a venerable monument of antiquity; and that, notwithstanding some few additions may have been made to it in comparatively modern times, it still retains sufficient to prove it a copy of the book referred to in Joshua 10 and 2 Samuel 1." In other words, a few later interpolations do not disqualify the entire book.

Have there been previous discussions of the book of Jasher in BC&H?

Answering my own question- yes.

03-03-2005, 03:19 PM	#1
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Noah's magic cloak??? [Book of Jasher] In this post in E/C, WILLOWTREE tells us that Noah was able to gather and control all the animals because he possessed the animal skin cloak which God made for Adam when he was expelled from the Garden. This cloak was supposed to have been passed on to Nimrod, also. Now, while I'm not the Biblical scholar many of those who frequent this forum are, neither am I a Biblical ignoramus. I've read the Apocrypha and much of the pseudopigraphica. However, this is the first time I've ever heard of any such thing- so I'd like to ask, has anyone here ever heard this legend?

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03-03-2005, 03:49 PM	#3
WILLOWTREE Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: LOS ANGELES Posts: 544	http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/7.htm "And in their going out, Ham stole those garments from Noah his father, and he took them and hid them from his brothers. And when Ham begat his first born Cush, he gave him the garments in secret, and they were with Cush many days. And Cush also concealed them from his sons and brothers, and when Cush had begotten Nimrod, he gave him those garments through his love for him, and Nimrod grew up, and when he was twenty years old he put on those garments. And Nimrod became strong when he put on the garments, and God gave him might and strength, and he was a mighty hunter in the earth, yea, he was a mighty hunter in the field, and he hunted the animals and he built altars, and he offered upon them the animals before the Lord." WT

03-03-2005, 03:54 PM	#4
yummyfur Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 351	The only cloak I know off associated with Noah, is the one Shem and Japheth covered him with when he got shitfaced drunk and was passed out naked. It was Ham seeing him naked that got his offspring, Canaan cursed to be slaves.

03-03-2005, 04:23 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	From a previous thread: Book of Jasher - I get the idea that this Book is a modern forgery. That is also the conclusion of this webpage: from Modern Apocrypha, Famous "Biblical" Hoaxes: Book of Jasher

03-03-2005, 04:39 PM	#6
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	This is what appears to be an interesting short piece although, since I can't read Hebrew, I'm not getting the full picture: JASHER, BOOK OF By : Emil G. Hirsch M. Seligsohn - From the Jewish Encyclopedia.

03-03-2005, 04:47 PM	#7
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Try this one from the E.J. which is on the topic and indicates that the earliest copy we have comes from 1552 and says that it is "one of the latest works of the midrashic Haggadah", ie it seems to be a late Jewish work. spin

03-03-2005, 04:49 PM	#9
leccy Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: U.K. Posts: 368	So more like the "Book Of Josher" then?

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