Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 02-16-2006, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter

I also know that most scholars think that Jesus did exist.

It is my impression that most scholars think he did exist. Except for very conservative scholars, most of them doubt that the gospels are an accurate record of his life and teachings, but the notion that there was no real man behind the stories is, at this time, still very much a minority view. (I happen to think it is the right one, though.)

What might be confusing to some people is that most scholars, even if they believe in a historical Jesus, make a point of noting that complete absence of primary evidence for his existence. The historical paper trail -- not excluding the Pauline corpus -- contains no contemporary references to him or to anybody who claimed to have known him. The only possible exception, and it is hotly debated, would be Josephus.

Wads4 · 02-16-2006, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter

This is not in any way meant to denigrate Jesus. Rather it is an attempt to separate the Jesus of the gospels from the Jesus of piety.
The gopels claim that Jesus had pre-existence and came from heaven. Should he not have been able to give us a few details about that place? There are very few utterances regarding heaven. "There are many mansions" a pretty meaningless detail. "They will be neither male nor female, but like the angles in heaven". That one seems to have been an answer to a trick guestion. Then his response about his second coming. Also very vague.
Did he know that he was going to die? It seems that he was hoping until the very end that god would save him.
These are a few examples that come quickly to my mind. Perhaps others have more.

Gunter

Well He and His Dad were dreadfully old-fashioned, and only managed to keep up with the technology of the times. Can we hope that by now God has put aside his sword and stopped bending his bow, and instead armed himself with modern weapons like a Kalashnykov and rocket-propelled grenades in order to continue smiting the enemies of the US (sorry), I mean Himself?
I'm not sure the above is really relevent to what you said,- I don't know why I said it-sorry.

Wads4 · 02-16-2006, 05:00 AM

"Why don't we have a record of His words if he did might be the real question?"

The Gospel of Thomas records the sayings of Jesus,-but I don't think heaven is described much therein.

Wads4 · 02-16-2006, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter

For the sake of this discussion I am presuming that we take the gospel accounts at face value. This is what believers generally do. They conclude from there that Jesus had pre-knowledge of events. My attempt here is to analyze the text and show that one can draw different conclusions, i.e. that Jesus did not know as much as the first impression might be.
Another example is perhaps that Jesus did not really know about the betrayal of Judas much before hand. Why would he select someone who will betray him? This would not have been necessary for the redemption to take place. (Again from a Christian perspective)
It would seem then, that Jesus was no more than a devout Jew who had no real news to dispense. It appears to me also that the gospel writers did make up things to make it match with Old Testament prophesies.

Also they had a tradition of pre-knowledge of events to come, as with all those O.T. prophets who somehow all just happened to be clairvoyant;. though of course now,-all that so-called prophecy can be debunked,--eg Daniel, written around 168 BC concerning past historical events in Babylon,--not prophecies of future events there. Also Isaiah-Deuteronomy describing the Persian King Cyrus, after or during his time--not earlier as in prophecising them. One wonders why he favoured Cyrus so much, as the first thing he (Cyrus) did on capturing Babylon was to sacrifice in the temple of Marduk (not Yahweh),-in order to ingratiate himself with the populace.

judge · 02-16-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter

It is quite possible that he never said anything about his second coming. Whatever the gospel writers attributed to him has not come true. But if he said something along those lines, he would certainly have been wrong.

OK but which comments in particular have not come true?

judge · 02-16-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wads4

"Why don't we have a record of His words if he did might be the real question?"

The Gospel of Thomas records the sayings of Jesus,-but I don't think heaven is described much therein.

Maybe but my point is that this does not mean Jesus did not describe heaven just that if he did Thomas did not record what was said, or if he did it did not survive.

Imnotspecial · 02-16-2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

OK but which comments in particular have not come true?

You must know as much as I do that Jesus has not returned in glory during the life time of his disciples as he told them. Clearly the early church was expecting his return very quickly. Why else would they have sold their belongings and kept everything in common as recorded in Acts. In any case, a promise made and not fulfilled for two thousand years has to be disregarded.

Imnotspecial · 02-16-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Maybe but my point is that this does not mean Jesus did not describe heaven just that if he did Thomas did not record what was said, or if he did it did not survive.

I think that is wishful rationalization. Knowing humans you must surely expect that if someone told them details about heaven, that would have been made known all over the world.

Kosh · 02-17-2006, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter

Also very vague.

I would recommend that you rent a copy of Peter Seller's "Being There". Quite an interesting take on the whole vague answers thing...

02-16-2006, 05:00 AM	#13
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	judge "Why don't we have a record of His words if he did might be the real question?" The Gospel of Thomas records the sayings of Jesus,-but I don't think heaven is described much therein.

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