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Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,579
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Originally Posted by Ben C Smith
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Originally Posted by Solo
I was referring to 'autoi' as the one of the 'intensifiers'. You have taken me to a grand tour about 'humeis' but forgot to tell me what the second intensifier ('hotous' - 'so, thus, in this manner') does in the sentence in which the event likened to as "thief in the night" lies wholly in the future and has no other point of reference than Paul's teaching.
The adverb ουτως is not an intensifier; it just coordinates with ως. The effect may be a little formal, but I do not think it is more intense than a simple ως. Here is Ezekiel 36.38 (LXX):
As [ως] the flock for sacrifices, as [ως] the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so [ουτως] will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men.
Compare 1 Thessalonians 5.2:
For you yourselves know full well that, as [ως] a thief in the night, so [ουτως] will the day of the Lord come.
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...or as I read it, 'so does the day of the Lord come'. The cognitive issues here are: how does Paul know, a) that the judgment day will come (soon), and b) in what manner it is to come. What the cognitive referent would be is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. Only one question is of interest here: 'when was Paul informed'. I dare say that Paul references something that he has been through repeatedly in the past (comp 1 Th 1:5 w. 1 Cr 2:4). I also infer from 1 Thessalonians that his experience (or vision) of risen Christ is based on the same agency of Holy Spirit that enables the group to discern God's ways without Paul's teaching (they are θεοδιδακτοι 4:8, ' taught by God').
So I feel quite comfortable with my position.
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I fear I do not understand this. In 2.4 we are entrusted with the gospel, pleasing not men but the God who examines our hearts. I think this we is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. In 2.8 we imparted to you, not only the gospel, but even our own souls. I am sure this we is Paul and his fellow missionaries.
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That could very well be; I think you are right. I don't understand your fear.
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You may not understand it, but you immediately turn around and reinforce it: |
Consider it possible, Ben, that any discomfort that you might feel on account of what I am saying, is self-inflicted.
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All I am saying is that there is an experiential event for the "thief in the night" that is lodged in the apostolic collective, which matches the "afflicted" church members at Thessalonia.
I am testing whether the historical and contemporary descriptions of epileptics, TL-psychosis sufferers (eg. certain kind of bi-polars) and NDE-subjects verbalizing the internal effects of complex TL partial seizures (and auras) matches the allegorical cipher of the "thief".
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Right over my head. I am not smart enough to put this all together cogently. Sorry.
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I think you just playing mind-games, Ben. You are smart enough to understand what I have written. 'The thief' metaphor in my perspective is best understood in terms of the sudden, unexpected, dramatic loss of "self" during a seizure.
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The event in question is often described by a sudden, unexpected luminosity, either seemingly localized in the body, or , as it were, instantly "filling" the body frame, or dissolving it into another 'ethereal' substnace. The subject is not unconscious but in a state of motor paralysis (or loss of motor control during convulsions), which state is internally received as immensely calming and rewarding. In contrast, in the moments immediately preceding the pseudo-photic phase, the aura announces itself by a hugely visceral fear and panic, which often triggers violent convulsions. Often a number of false auras are presented before the actual seizure.
I don't know if this helps but Teresa of Avila spoke of her experiences of the Lord as 'seeing nothing'. 'Since you see nothing', asked her confessor incredulously, 'how do you know it is Our Lord' ? She replied simply that she saw no face, that she knew it was Our Lord and it was not an illusion....'one sees nothing, wiithin or without...but while seeing nothing the soul understands what it is and where it is more clearly than if you saw him....The soul hears no word, either within or without, but understands quite clearly who it is and where he is and sometimes even what he means to tell. How and by what means [the soul] understands, it does not know, but so it is; and while this is happening it cannot fail to know it' (in M.Rodinson, Mohammed, Pelican. p.74). Teresa was an epileptic.
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I am no stranger to the mystical literature, though I admit I am weak on Teresa of Avila. But I do not know what these deep mystical experiences have directly to do with the day of the Lord, an event repeatedly prophesied in the Hebrew scriptures and here said by Paul, with this thief metaphor, to be a sudden or unexpected event for those who are not ready for it; for his fellow Thessalonian brethren he does not expect it to come as a thief (5.4).
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The "thief" metaphor does not come from Isaiah, or Jeremiah, or Ezekiel, or Daniel, so where does it come from, if not from inside of Paul's head ? And what a strange idea it is ! Lord like a thief ? Unless of course you want to tell me that Paul was aware of Jesus saying liking himself to a "robber" during his night arrest in Gethsemane. If not, how come it was understood and accepted into the lore ?
Jiri
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05-09-2008, 12:46 PM
