Toto

That's because we live in a modern society where no one really believes in the supernatural.

But we are trying to understand what happened, which means understanding why second century Christians wrote what they wrote, and what they meant by it.

There is this idea, promoted by Christians and accepted by others, that the gospels are based on history, or have some historical core, and that the historical Jesus can be recovered from this literature. This idea turns out to be difficult to support.

It would help if you explained your position, instead of just posting these cryptic comments.

Iskander

Jesus was human, only human.

Those that deny the humanity of Jesus are behaving like the church did towards heretics and they both, church and deniers, share the same intolerance and irrationality.


Rational, informed atheists are treated like heretics by this ‘god’ forsaken forum.

Secular cardinals should speak softly .

Toto

What the hell are you talking about? If someone looks at the record and decides that the best explanation of the evidence is that there was no historical Jesus, how is that intolerant or irrational?

No one is being burned at the stake here.

Kapyong

Gday all,

Here's those citations Earl gave about a heavenly Jesus. I've used Young's Literal Translation, hoping to get closest to the Greek :

Colossians 1:15-20

15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
18And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,
19because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
20and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

Titus 1:2-3

2upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,
3(and He manifested in proper times His word,) in preaching, which I was entrusted with, according to a charge of God our Saviour,

Hebrews 8:4

4for if, indeed, he were upon earth, he would not be a priest -- (there being the priests who are offering according to the law, the gifts,

Hebrews 10:37

37for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;

1 Cor. 15:35-49

35But some one will say, `How do the dead rise?
36unwise! thou -- what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die;
37and that which thou dost sow, not the body that shall be dost thou sow, but bare grain, it may be of wheat, or of some one of the others,
38and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body.
39All flesh [is] not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;
40and [there are] heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one [is] the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
41one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.
42So also [is] the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
43it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
45so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit,
46but that which is spiritual [is] not first, but that which [was] natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual.
47The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;
48as [is] the earthy, such [are] also the earthy; and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] also the heavenly;
49and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly.

1 Cor. 2:8

8which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;

Romans 16:26-27

26and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --
27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to him [be] glory to the ages. Amen.

Romans 1:2-3 (scripture as the source of Paul’s relation to David)

2which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings --
3concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,

Galatians 3:23-5

23 Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

Romans 10:11-21

11for the Writing saith, `Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,'
12for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him,
13for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'
14How then shall they call upon [him] in whom they did not believe? and how shall they believe [on him] of whom they did not hear? and how shall they hear apart from one preaching?
15and how shall they preach, if they may not be sent? according as it hath been written, `How beautiful the feet of those proclaiming good tidings of peace, of those proclaiming good tidings of the good things!'
16But they were not all obedient to the good tidings, for Isaiah saith, `Lord, who did give credence to our report?'
17so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God,
18but I say, Did they not hear? yes, indeed -- `to all the earth their voice went forth, and to the ends of the habitable world their sayings.'
19But I say, Did not Israel know? first Moses saith, `I will provoke you to jealousy by [that which is] not a nation; by an unintelligent nation I will anger you,'
20and Isaiah is very bold, and saith, `I was found by those not seeking Me; I became manifest to those not inquiring after Me;'
21and unto Israel He saith, `All the day I did stretch out My hands unto a people unbelieving and gainsaying.'

Hebrews 9:10

10only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances -- till the time of reformation imposed upon [them].

Romans 8:22-23

22for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.
23And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

and 2 Cor. 6:2

2for He saith, `In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in a day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now [is] a well-accepted time; lo, now, a day of salvation,' --

Colossians 3:4

4when the Christ -- our life -- may be manifested, then also we with him shall be manifested in glory.

and 1 Peter 5:4

4and at the manifestation of the chief Shepherd, ye shall receive the unfading crown of glory.

1 Peter 2:22

22who did not commit sin, nor was guile found in his mouth,

Galatians 1:16

16to reveal His Son in me, that I might proclaim him good news among the nations, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood,

1 Thess. 4:9

9And concerning the brotherly love, ye have no need of [my] writing to you, for ye yourselves are God-taught to love one another,

1 Cor. 12:28

28And some, indeed, did God set in the assembly, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, afterwards powers, afterwards gifts of healings, helpings, governings, divers kinds of tongues;

Kapyong

Iskander

An ecclesiastical answer!!

GakuseiDon

Yes, yes, you and Dave31 agree I'm a horrible person. With that established, let's get back to the claims.

Richard Carrier finds there are hints about the Gospels in those Second Century apologists. From here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/NTcanon.html

No, my prima facie reading is that he heaps scorn on the idea of Christians worshipping a crucified and mortal criminal, exactly as you put it.

Roberts-Donaldson translates the passage as "[H]e who explains their ceremonies by reference to a man punished by extreme suffering for his wickedness, and to the deadly wood of the cross, appropriates fitting altars for reprobate and wicked men, that they may worship what they deserve".

Rendall and Kerr (Cambridge, Mass. 1931) has:

"To say that a malefactor put to death for his crimes, the wood of the death-dealing cross, are objects of their veneration is to assign fitting altars to be abandoned wretches and the kind of worship they deserve".

In other words, the charge is that Christians must be wicked because they worship a wicked man. A criminal. Someone punished for his wickedness. A malefactor. In other words, not the perfected man of Paul who was crucified for his obedience to God.

How does Octavius' respond? He heaps scorn on the idea of Christians worshipping a crucified criminal, exactly as you say. Octavius responds: "For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God."

It's along those lines, though I've always expressed it as if "there is a silence in the 2nd Century apologists on the subject of the historical Jesus which is virtually equal of that found in the 1st century epistle writers (Doherty J:NGNM, page 485)" AND we find that those 2nd Century apologists were probably HJers, then it would reset our expectations about what we see in the First Century writings.

The problem with your views here -- the Pygmy on your back, if you will -- is that your views on Tatian and the other Second Century apologists are frankly laughable. And we find similar silences amongst writers who we know from their other writings that they believed in a HJ. This fact is not mentioned at all in your book.

IF there is an extensive silence amongst the Second Century apologists "which is virtually equal of that found in the 1st century epistle writers" -- and there is no doubt that there is -- and we find that they were probably HJers, then wouldn't this need to be factored into the equation when looking at the silence in the First Century epistle writers?

You go gEarl! Give Ehrman the treatment! I am so looking forward to that; the mock disappointment, pretending you were expecting something better. No doubt you are poised over the keyboard in anticipation; I'm counting on you here, Earl. You do have your audience to think of!

Well, let's start with your first point. You write: "Hebrews 10:37 which quotes a famous prophecy that the Coming One will come soon, and ignores the fact that he had already been here".

Here is Hebrews 10:37:

Hbr 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

The word "come" is "erchomai". From here:

Greek has no specific word for "return" in the sense of coming back to a place one has visited or been at before. The word erchomai is a basic verb of motion and can mean to come, or to go, or to pass; a specific meaning, which can include "return," is conveyed by adjuncts or the context.

So it depends on context. Let's look at some usages:

Mat 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me."
...
40 Then he came [erchomai] to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "What? Could you not watch with me one hour? ...
43 And he came [erchomai] and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So he left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
45 Then he came [erchomai] to his disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand...”

Note that aMark uses it multiple times, despite it obviously that Jesus is returning each time.

Mark 9:13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come [erchomai]

Elias lived many years earlier, so this can only be a 'return'.

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come [erchomai]

The nobleman is obviously returning.

Jhn 21:22 Jesus said to him, If I will that he tarry till I come [erchomai], what is that to you?

Very similar to the Heb 10:37 verse.

So we would need to look further to get the context.

Iskander

It is a religious book and hence it speaks about religion.

The quaram speaks of god, hell, angels...because it is also a religious book.

Both, Jesus and Mohamed were men like any other. Theology cannot change that.

The arguments used by deniers are nothing at all, irrelevant and childish

GakuseiDon

Hi Kapyong -- are you sure that list is correct? I can't see "1 Peter 2:22 who did not commit sin, nor was guile found in his mouth" causing a lot of problems for historicists, for example. So I'm wondering if you pasted the wrong list?

Toto

Note that Richard Carrier in that article is summarizing Bruce Metzger's The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Toto

Note that Richard Carrier in that article is summarizing Bruce Metzger's The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance (or via: amazon.co.uk).