Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 07-26-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This may be anti-Christian in a technical sense, but it hardly evidences hostility to Christianity, especially the sort of hostility that would cloud one's judgment.

Doherty clearly insinuates that belief in the historicity of Christ is "fantasy", involving extrapolation "of the best in ourselves." I would indeed assert that this outlook clouds his assessment of the evidence.

Zeichman · 07-26-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Contrary to Doug Shaver, Ben Smith has made a compelling case that Paul thought Jesus lived and died not long before himself.

Ben Smith was very weak. Ben cannot determine the intentions or beliefs of the authors of the Pauline Epistles. The Pauline Epistles are now regarded as being written by more than one author, that is, the person called Paul in some or all is not Paul at all.

You obviously either didn't read what Ben says or have no idea what the positions of mainstream scholarship are. Where did he appeal to the pastorals or Ephesians and Colossians? And if he "can't" determine, then how can you? Wouldn't the endeavor of determining author ship of allegedly "Pauline" epistles be rendered moot?

I would further contend that the special pleading (and willingness to accept their own conjecture) found in the writings of MJers indicates they are at least as self-affirming as the HJers they criticize.

Dreadnought · 07-26-2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This may be anti-Christian in a technical sense, but it hardly evidences hostility to Christianity, especially the sort of hostility that would cloud one's judgment.

Doherty clearly insinuates that belief in the historicity of Christ is "fantasy", involving extrapolation "of the best in ourselves." I would indeed assert that this outlook clouds his assessment of the evidence.

Not as I read it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doherty

So long as we cease to search for meaning in the sphere of fantasy, or extrapolate the best in ourselves onto an idealized, larger-than-life individual or heavenly force (which the Jesus Seminar is still trying to do). Instead, we need only find it in the earth-based capacity of every human individual.

Conservatives assume a godly Jesus, liberals assume a great teacher of some sort, Doherty assumes just humans. Dohertys starting point seems to be the most reasonable of the three. Generally I'd prefer no particular assumptions being made before the investigation, but that doesn't appear to be the norm in this line of research.

Chris Weimer · 07-26-2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Conservatives assume a godly Jesus, liberals assume a great teacher of some sort, Doherty assumes just humans. Dohertys starting point seems to be the most reasonable of the three. Generally I'd prefer no particular assumptions being made before the investigation, but that doesn't appear to be the norm in this line of research.

You have to assume some things. Assume that the world was not created yesterday. Assume that superficially, things are as they seem. Otherwise, you're asking me to prove that the mountain is not merely in my head.

quoting · 07-26-2007, 07:05 PM

What about the Tomb nearby on Mt of Olives' Dominus Flevit, Jerusalem. The tombs that date from the 1st half of the 1st Century (40's or late 30's) have inscriptions like Jesus, have mercy," and "Jesus, remember me in the resurrection," indicating the presence in Jerusalem from a fairly early date of a community that believed in resurrection and in a man named Jesus.

Chris Weimer · 07-26-2007, 07:10 PM

Yes, I've pointed that out before.

aa5874 · 07-26-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichman

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Ben Smith was very weak. Ben cannot determine the intentions or beliefs of the authors of the Pauline Epistles. The Pauline Epistles are now regarded as being written by more than one author, that is, the person called Paul in some or all is not Paul at all.

You obviously either didn't read what Ben says or have no idea what the positions of mainstream scholarship are. Where did he appeal to the pastorals or Ephesians and Colossians? And if he "can't" determine, then how can you? Wouldn't the endeavor of determining author ship of allegedly "Pauline" epistles be rendered moot?

The fact is the authors of the 'Pauline Epistles' are questionable, therefore it is futile for any-one to claim to know what the authors believed or their intentions. Some or all of the 'Pauline Epistles may be regarded as forgeries.

spamandham · 07-26-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

When I started researching the question of the historical Christ, I too was appalled at the pallid, unconvincing fluff that I found everywhere in the mainstream literature. Eventually, I did find a book that satisfied me.

I have not read much of Brunner, to include this book, but based on the excerpt, I probably should. I've had a suspicion for some time that the original Christianity was really metaphorical for internal 'spirituality' - you have to crucify (humble) the self , reign in your desires, in order to be resurrected (achieve peace) and become part of the kingdom (those who have achieved iit), but I haven't been able to make a strong case for that. Perhaps Brunner did? There are remnants of this idea that seem to dimly shine through in the writings of Paul, though I don't think this is Paul's position.

spamandham · 07-26-2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quoting

What about the Tomb nearby on Mt of Olives' Dominus Flevit, Jerusalem. The tombs that date from the 1st half of the 1st Century (40's or late 30's) have inscriptions like Jesus, have mercy," and "Jesus, remember me in the resurrection," indicating the presence in Jerusalem from a fairly early date of a community that believed in resurrection and in a man named Jesus.

Do you have references for this?

Chris Weimer · 07-26-2007, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Do you have references for this?

I already given you a reference.

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07-26-2007, 07:05 PM	#185
quoting Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: S.Carolina Posts: 34	What about the Tomb nearby on Mt of Olives' Dominus Flevit, Jerusalem. The tombs that date from the 1st half of the 1st Century (40's or late 30's) have inscriptions like Jesus, have mercy," and "Jesus, remember me in the resurrection," indicating the presence in Jerusalem from a fairly early date of a community that believed in resurrection and in a man named Jesus.

07-26-2007, 07:10 PM	#186
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Yes, I've pointed that out before.

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