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Old 02-27-2011, 08:19 PM   #21
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This Jesus bloke may not have been an historical figure. He may not in fact have "appeared in the flesh". The docetic gnostics place Jesus and the apostles in fantasyland. Do you know where that is? Gandalf the Grey had lots of friends, in high and low places, but that does not make Gandalf the Grey an historical figure. We do not generally consider that Gandalf the Grey "appeared in the flesh", rather that he was a literary character invented by the author JRR Tolkien in the 20th century.

Simon Magus features in a number of gnostic acts in miracle contests that he loses against the intrepid apostles. In the Acts of Peter, where Peter resurrects smoked fish, and makes dogs talk; Simon is plucked out of the sky by Peter. In the Acts of Peter and Paul, Peter again battles Simon Magus in the presence of the Apostle Paul, all the while in the presence of the Roman Emperor Nero. This is the sort of historical information one needs to know about Simon Magus.

Here are some examples of docetic gnostic texts.

Docetism in the Nag Hammadi Library

At least two texts in the NHL are considered docetic:

NHC 7.2 The Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Translated by Bullard & Gibbons

It depicts a Jesus who did not die on the cross.
"For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death...It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I[t] was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns...And I was laughing at their ignorance." (Jesus as purported narrator).
Elsewhere ....
"we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them..." .
NHC 7.3 The (Gnostic) Apocalypse of Peter
Translated by Brashler & Bullard

The text takes gnostic interpretations of the crucifixion to the extreme, picturing Jesus as laughing and warning against people who cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking they shall become pure. According to this text:
"He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.".
Not to be confused with the Apocalypse of Peter. It warns against the Bishops .....
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."
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Originally Posted by Toto View Post
There is no record of the idea that Jesus might have been fictional in the early church.
The Gnostic Acts and Gospels are blatantly exaggerated popular Hellenistic fiction stories. These things in their own right are waving their arms about saying "I am an impossible fiction". When Jesus in various changing disguises, docetically appears in blatantly exaggerated popular Hellenistic fiction stories, in which the Apostles perform outrageously impossible miracles, one after another, I dont think you have a case. The Gnostics presented the non historical docetic and fictional Jesus and his Twelve Apostles in a far more popular style that the authors of the canonical books.

Before the peace of Constantine, the gnostic authors appear to have been running libraries and authorship of new gnostic texts in direct competition with the "Early Orthodox Canon followers". But after the peace of Constantine, these gnostic books were treated as heretical. Jesus was not to be made into any popular stories, since the power of the church was contained in the contents of the canonical story books alone.

The Jesus fiction stories were banned, prohibited, searched out, burnt, destroyed and finally buried. But guess what? They are starting to appear centuries later. Why were they considered heretical? IMO because they were the unofficial fiction stories, and were not in control of the Nicaean church. These heretical books present Jesus (and the apostles) enmeshed in the context of popular fiction, whale tales, and monstrous fables.
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