Freethought & Rationalism Archive

un-holy · 03-04-2013, 08:22 AM

Is there a discrepancy in these two versus? or is there an explanation.

Toto · 03-04-2013, 08:33 AM

Background:

Quote:

According to 2 Chronicles 22:2, Ahaziah was 42 years old when his reign began, while 2 Kings 8:26 gives his age as 22 years. Most scholars regard the 42 years in 2 Chronicles 22:2 as a copyist's error for an original 22 years. The age of 22 is also found in some Greek and Syrian manuscripts of 2 Chronicles 22:2. According to the biblical sources, he reigned for only one year...

spin · 03-04-2013, 08:45 AM

Welcome un-holy.

As a brief response, umm, 22 versus 42, a discrepency? Well, ahh, let's see, I guess ya kinda could say it was a discrepency. If you trot over to answersingenesis, always worth a laugh, you'll find that they say it was a scribal error! Mind you the two words eshreen (20) and arbeen (40) are not particularly confusable, but hey, if you're christian, you can run with scribal error.

We don't usually worry about such things, as they aren't particularly central to the religions involved. It's only the gruntiest fundamentalist who would get their knickers knotted over it and, if you're in discussion with said fundie, no sense that comes out of your mouth will have any effect.

Duvduv · 03-04-2013, 08:57 AM

I would refer you to the Rashi commentary in 2 Chronicles 22:2 who asks this very question and provides a very long answer. Also, see Rashi's commentary on 2 Kings 9:29. As a summary there Rashi explains that Ahaziah was appointed king twice: once during his father's lifetime when Jehoram was struck with an illness, and again on his own twenty years later. You will find in Kings that several of the rulers were appointed king when their father was still alive.

un-holy · 03-04-2013, 09:30 AM

Spin says, that answersingenesis says that it is a scribal error, if that is so, would that not make the Bible fallible?

Toto · 03-04-2013, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by un-holy

Spin says, that answersingenesis says that it is a scribal error, if that is so, would that not make the Bible fallible?

There are some inerrantists who claim that only the original writing was inerrant, because the original writers were inspired. God didn't take the time to inspire the later copyists, for reasons best known to Himself. Perhaps he was busy.

You can see how this gets the inerrantist out of some difficulties, although it does not solve all Biblical problems.

un-holy · 03-04-2013, 09:43 AM

Toto, that is just great to know that the originals were inspired, now if we only had the originals...

John Kesler · 03-04-2013, 06:14 PM

There are numerous alleged "copyist errors" and all manner of textual variants in the Bible. My thought is that although this may not disqualify the Bible from being divinely inspired, it certainly does nothing to distinguish the Bible from profane texts.

At any rate, if you want a numerical error that is rather easy to demonstrate but doesn't easily afford the copyist-error dodge, I submit this one:

1 Samuel 7:1-2 reads as follows:

Quote:

1 And the people of Kiriath-jearim came and took up the ark of Yahweh, and brought it to the house of Abinadab on the hill. They consecrated his son, Eleazar, to have charge of the ark of Yahweh. 2 From the day that the ark was lodged at Kiriath-jearim, a long time passed, some twenty years, and all the house of Israel lamented after Yahweh.

The problem is that the ark was taken to the "house of Abinadab on the hill" before Saul became king (1 Samuel 10:1), Saul reigned for forty years (Acts 13:21), and the ark wasn't retrieved from "the house of Abinadab on the hill" until Saul's successor David was king (2 Samuel 6:1-3). After a three-month stopover at the "house of Obed-edom the Gittite" (2 Samuel 6:10-11), it was taken to "the city of David," an area that had been under Jebusite control for at least seven and a half years into David's reign (2 Samuel 5:5), meaning that around 50 years elapsed between the delivery of the ark to Abiadab's house and its retrieval by David. That's around a thirty-year discrepancy, which can't just be waived off with the copyist-error excuse.

John Kesler · 03-05-2013, 10:46 AM

Here are just a few of the numerical discrepancies usually dismissed as "copyist errors":

Quote:

1 Kings 5:15-16
15Solomon also had seventy thousand labourers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hill country,16besides Solomon’s three thousand three hundred supervisors who were over the work, having charge of the people who did the work.

2 Chronicles 2:2
2Solomon conscripted seventy thousand laborers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hill country, with three thousand six hundred to oversee them.

Quote:

1 Kings 7:26
26Its thickness was a handbreadth; its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily; it held two thousand baths.

2 Chronicles 4:5
5Its thickness was a handbreadth; its rim was made like the rim of a cup, like the flower of a lily; it held three thousand baths.

Quote:

1 Kings 9:27-28
27Hiram sent his servants with the fleet, sailors who were familiar with the sea, together with the servants of Solomon. 28They went to Ophir, and imported from there four hundred and twenty talents of gold, which they delivered to King Solomon.

2 Chronicles 8:1818Huram sent him, in the care of his servants, ships and servants familiar with the sea. They went to Ophir, together with the servants of Solomon, and imported from there four hundred fifty talents of gold and brought it to King Solomon.

Quote:

1 Kings 4:26
26Solomon also had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2 Chronicles 9:25
25Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horses, which he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king in Jerusalem.

Quote:

1 Kings 7:15
15 He cast two pillars of bronze. Eighteen cubits was the height of one, and a cord of twelve cubits would encircle it; the second pillar was the same.

2 Chronicles 3:15
15In front of the house he made two pillars thirty-five cubits high, with a capital of five cubits on the top of each.

Quote:

1 Kings 16:6-8
6Baasha slept with his ancestors, and was buried at Tirzah; and his son Elah succeeded him. 7Moreover, the word of the Lord came by the prophet Jehu son of Hanani against Baasha and his house, both because of all the evil that he did in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger with the work of his hands, in being like the house of Jeroboam, and also because he destroyed it. 8 In the twenty-sixth year of King Asa of Judah, Elah son of Baasha began to reign over Israel in Tirzah; he reigned for two years.

2 Chronicles 16:1
In the thirty-sixth year of the reign of Asa, King Baasha of Israel went up against Judah, and built Ramah, to prevent anyone from going out or coming into the territory of King Asa of Judah.

Quote:

2 Kings 24:8
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign; he reigned for three months in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Nehushta daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 36:9
9Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign; he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem. He did what was evil in the sight of the Lord.

Quote:

1 Kings 16:23
23In the thirty-first year of King Asa of Judah, Omri began to reign over Israel; he reigned for twelve years, six of them in Tirzah.

1 Kings 16:28-29:
28Omri slept with his ancestors, and was buried in Samaria; his son Ahab succeeded him. 29 In the thirty-eighth year of King Asa of Judah, Ahab son of Omri began to reign over Israel; Ahab son of Omri reigned over Israel in Samaria for twenty-two years.

Fun with numbers:

Quote:

Joshua 15:33-36
33 And in the lowlands, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, 34Zanoah, En-gannim, Tappuah, Enam, 35Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, 36Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen towns with their villages.

There are actually 15 listed.

Quote:

Joshua 19:2-6
2It had for its inheritance Beer-sheba, Sheba, Moladah, 3Hazar-shual, Balah, Ezem, 4Eltolad, Bethul, Hormah, 5Ziklag, Beth-marcaboth, Hazar-susah, 6Beth-lebaoth, and Sharuhen—thirteen towns with their villages;

There are actually 14 listed.

Quote:

1 Chronicles 3:22
22The son of Shecaniah: Shemaiah. And the sons of Shemaiah: Hattush, Igal, Bariah, Neariah, and Shaphat, six.

Five are actually listed.

Duvduv · 03-05-2013, 12:01 PM

I looked through the first four on your list. I was terrible in math in high school and still cannot work with it. I also don't have the time to go through all of them.

For the first (which is actually 1 Kings 5:29-30) there is an extensive discussion in the Rashi commentary about the difference from 2 Chronicles 2:2, and he references 1 Kings 8:10. The difference in the number has to do with different activities and different supervising officers, both proselytes and native born Jews.

The second case in 1 Kings 7:26 also has an extensive Rashi discussion about the difference from Chronicles.

The third case in 1 Kings 9:27-28 also references 1 Kings 10:22 and the Rashi and Abarbanel commentators also discuss the distinctions between 450 and 420 because of different trips.

And the case in 1 Kings 4:5-6 versus 2 Chronicles 9:25 also do not refer to the same situation.

You can try checking it yourself at this website with an option for clicking on or off for Rashi: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...with-Rashi.htm

03-04-2013, 08:22 AM	#1
un-holy New Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Southeast United States Posts: 3	2 Kings 8:26 versus 2 Chronicles 22:2 Is there a discrepancy in these two versus? or is there an explanation.

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03-04-2013, 08:45 AM	#3
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Welcome un-holy. As a brief response, umm, 22 versus 42, a discrepency? Well, ahh, let's see, I guess ya kinda could say it was a discrepency. If you trot over to answersingenesis, always worth a laugh, you'll find that they say it was a scribal error! Mind you the two words eshreen (20) and arbeen (40) are not particularly confusable, but hey, if you're christian, you can run with scribal error. We don't usually worry about such things, as they aren't particularly central to the religions involved. It's only the gruntiest fundamentalist who would get their knickers knotted over it and, if you're in discussion with said fundie, no sense that comes out of your mouth will have any effect.

03-04-2013, 08:57 AM	#4
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I would refer you to the Rashi commentary in 2 Chronicles 22:2 who asks this very question and provides a very long answer. Also, see Rashi's commentary on 2 Kings 9:29. As a summary there Rashi explains that Ahaziah was appointed king twice: once during his father's lifetime when Jehoram was struck with an illness, and again on his own twenty years later. You will find in Kings that several of the rulers were appointed king when their father was still alive.

03-04-2013, 09:30 AM	#5
un-holy New Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Southeast United States Posts: 3	Spin says, that answersingenesis says that it is a scribal error, if that is so, would that not make the Bible fallible?

03-04-2013, 09:43 AM	#7
un-holy New Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Southeast United States Posts: 3	Toto, that is just great to know that the originals were inspired, now if we only had the originals...

03-05-2013, 12:01 PM	#10
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I looked through the first four on your list. I was terrible in math in high school and still cannot work with it. I also don't have the time to go through all of them. For the first (which is actually 1 Kings 5:29-30) there is an extensive discussion in the Rashi commentary about the difference from 2 Chronicles 2:2, and he references 1 Kings 8:10. The difference in the number has to do with different activities and different supervising officers, both proselytes and native born Jews. The second case in 1 Kings 7:26 also has an extensive Rashi discussion about the difference from Chronicles. The third case in 1 Kings 9:27-28 also references 1 Kings 10:22 and the Rashi and Abarbanel commentators also discuss the distinctions between 450 and 420 because of different trips. And the case in 1 Kings 4:5-6 versus 2 Chronicles 9:25 also do not refer to the same situation. You can try checking it yourself at this website with an option for clicking on or off for Rashi: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...with-Rashi.htm

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