Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 10:10 AM

It is impossible to effectively argue against a many-headed hydra of ignorance and blindness. Each of your takes your own idiotic spin on 'how the text can be ignored.' But the bottom line is that the practices of the Therapetuae resemble that of the Essenes and Jewish sectarian groups we know of through the Qumran texts. Another example the 364 day calendar.

I had a long conversation with James Charlesworth when I was flying to Washington DC one time. He is a real expert unlike the rest of you and he acknowledges the 'Jewishness' of the 364 day calendar solar calendar Philo describes the group as using. But for those of you unable to actually make sense of what Philo is saying there is Joan Taylor's summary and her linking the practices with Ethiopian Jews who used to be centered 'down river' at the end of the Nile at Axum:

http://books.google.com/books?id=m2n...peutae&f=false

I am sure none of you want to understand how Jewish practices could have been shipped down the Nile look at Alexandria and Aksum on a fucking map. But I have included the map anyway in the hope that at least a few of you have some intellectual integrity. Charlesworth actually went to Ethiopia to study the cultures use of the same 364 day calendar borrowed clearly from Jews somewhere. The Therapeutae is as good a guess as any.

The arrangement of the monasteries in Ethiopia greatly resembles the description in Philo of the Therapeutae:

Here is a recent travelers description of the arrangement of the living quarters:

Quote:

Inside the inner walls was a holy sanctuary. We were not allowed access, as only the holiest can go there to approach each church's most valued possession -- its tabot, or replica of a tablet of the Ark of the Covenant.

mountainman · 02-05-2013, 10:16 AM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

It is either you have not read 'VC', did not understand 'VC' or cannot remember what you read.

So the fact that the experts on Philo and early Judaism interpret the text the way Toto and I do says nothing at all for the accuracy of our analysis? Come on this is getting ridiculous. Surely the experts count for something?

Experts have been known to be wrong.

This is a discussion not a pulpit.

Address the issues I have raised.

Please cease and desist with the worst form of offensive commentary and chest-beating.

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 10:20 AM

You've raised absolutely no substantive issues. None whatsoever. You just want to ignore the text and quote mine to justify your ambition.

mountainman · 02-05-2013, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

As far as I am concerned there is sufficient evidence in this list of variances to substantiate the possibility that Philo did not author "VC".

How can you say no one has responded? The rationalist Conybeare definitively refuted the idea that Philo did not write VC on lingistic grounds, .

Although others may, I do not for one moment assume that Coneybeare's argument has definitively refuted the idea that Philo did not write VC. I do intend to read the Coneybeare's article in order to understand what this definitive refutation appeals to.

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...and I do recall some dispute as to the idea that Philo's views in VC were different ...

The list of issues defining this dispute is located here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo%2..._Contemplativa

Quote:

Originally Posted by For the 3rd time

But there are great dissimilarities between the fundamental conceptions of the author of the "De Vita Contemplativa" and those of Philo.

The latter looks upon Greek culture and philosophy as allies, the former is hostile to Greek philosophy (see Siegfried in "Protestantische Kirchenzeitung," 1896, No.42).

He repudiates a science that numbered among Its followers the sacred baud of the Pythagoreans, inspired men like Parmenides, Empedocles, Zeno, Cleanthes, Heraclitus, and Plato, whom Philo prized ("Quod Omnis Probus," i., ii.; "Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," 43; "De Providentia," ii. 42, 48, etc.).

He considers the symposium a detestable, common drinking-bout. This can not be explained as a Stoic diatribe; for in this case Philo would not have repeated it.

And Philo would have been the last to interpret the Platonic Eros in the vulgar way in which it is explained in the "De Vita Contemplativa," 7 (ii. 480), as he repeatedly uses the myth of double man allegorically in his interpretation of Scripture ("De Opificio Mundi," 24; "De Allegoriis Legum," ii. 24).

It must furthermore be remembered that Philo in none of his other works mentions these colonies of allegorizing ascetics, in which he would have been highly interested had he known of them.

But pupils of Philo may subsequently have founded near Alexandria similar colonies that endeavored to realize his ideal of a pure life triumphing over the senses and passions; and they might also have been responsible for the one-sided development of certain of the master's principles. While Philo desired to renounce the lusts of this world, he held fast to the scientific culture of Hellenism, which the author of this book denounces. Although Philo liked to withdraw from the world in order to give himself up entirely to contemplation, and bitterly regretted the lack of such repose ("De Specialibus Legibus," 1 [ii. 299]), he did not abandon the work that was required of him by the welfare of his people.

Quote:

But Massebieau ("Revue de l'Histoire des Religions," 1887, xvi. 170 et seq., 284 et seq.), F. C. Conybeare ("Philo About the Contemplative Life," Oxford, 1895), and Wendland ("Die Therapeuten," etc., Leipsig, 1896) ascribe the entire work to Philo, basing their argument wholly on linguistic reasons, which seem sufficiently conclusive.

Unless someone knows in advance, I intend reading Conybeare's thesis to see whether or not he addresses any of the arguments outlines above.

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 10:31 AM

So let's count all the reasons for identifying this sectarian group with pagan religion:

Quote:

1) pagans and Greek speaking Jews of Alexandria identified their priests as 'therapeutai'

Now let's count all the reasons for identifying this sectarian group as Jewish:

Quote:

1) Philo was Jewish
2) the Contemplative Life is uncharacteristically hostile to paganism (so mountainman's own witness) and thus 'typically Jewish'
3) the text mentions an interest in typical Jewish features of religious life (devotion to the Jewish God, Moses, Miriam, Israel, the redemption of the Israelites etc)
4) the sect is identified as a branch of another known Jewish group the Essenes
5) the group shares unusual features known to be associated with the Essenes (i.e. praying toward the rising of the sun)
6) the group shares unusual features with known Jewish sectarian groups - i.e. assuming that the Qurman sectarian group is not 'the Essenes' (i.e. the 364 solar calendar)
7) the groups shares unusual features with known Jewish sectarian groups still living today - the Ethiopian Falashas and the semi-Jewish Ethiopian Church.

Gee I wonder which argument is the stronger. But in certain people unfortunately passion and the desire to make certain 'hobby horses' true outweighs the duty to truthfulness.

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 10:58 AM

More on the 364 day calendar shared by various Jewish sectarian groups

http://books.google.com/books?id=aLc...20gaon&f=false

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 11:04 AM

Vermes also states that "from Talmudic times the recitation of the morning Shema' has been preceded by a benediction thanking God for the creation of light." http://books.google.com/books?id=F0u...god%22&f=false

If aa has a hard time making sense of Christianity having spent his whole life studying it one shouldn't expect him to be an expert on identifying 'typically Jewish practices'

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 11:07 AM

Even more on the calendar of the Therapeutae as 'typically Jewish'

http://www.academia.edu/1213350/The_...ime_Periods_I_

One should also the Samaritan Sebuaeans mentioned in Abu'l Fath. The phenomenon was real and witnessed from many different sources.

Sheshbazzar · 02-05-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

look at Alexandria and Aksum on a fucking map

I see the maps ....but where are they copulating?

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 11:23 AM

Also very interesting is that various scholars connect the Philonic reference to the Therapeutae with a newly discovered reference from Saida Gaon:

A further important field raised by the Lewys pertains to the pentecontad festivals in Philo's account of the Therapeutae.15 Following their treatment, some writers noted a pertinent passage from the Cairo Genizah, ascribed to the Kitab al-tamyiz of R. Sa'adia Gaon, in which the writer ascribes to “Judah the Alexandrian” a statute about celebrating harvest festivals (in addition to the cereal festival mentioned in Leviticus); these festivals stand fifty days apart in the calendar. [http://books.google.com/books?id=aLc...rt%22&f=false]

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02-05-2013, 10:20 AM	#583
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	You've raised absolutely no substantive issues. None whatsoever. You just want to ignore the text and quote mine to justify your ambition.

02-05-2013, 10:58 AM	#586
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	More on the 364 day calendar shared by various Jewish sectarian groups http://books.google.com/books?id=aLc...20gaon&f=false

02-05-2013, 11:04 AM	#587
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Vermes also states that "from Talmudic times the recitation of the morning Shema' has been preceded by a benediction thanking God for the creation of light." http://books.google.com/books?id=F0u...god%22&f=false If aa has a hard time making sense of Christianity having spent his whole life studying it one shouldn't expect him to be an expert on identifying 'typically Jewish practices'

02-05-2013, 11:07 AM	#588
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Even more on the calendar of the Therapeutae as 'typically Jewish' http://www.academia.edu/1213350/The_...ime_Periods_I_ One should also the Samaritan Sebuaeans mentioned in Abu'l Fath. The phenomenon was real and witnessed from many different sources.

02-05-2013, 11:23 AM	#590
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Also very interesting is that various scholars connect the Philonic reference to the Therapeutae with a newly discovered reference from Saida Gaon: A further important field raised by the Lewys pertains to the pentecontad festivals in Philo's account of the Therapeutae.15 Following their treatment, some writers noted a pertinent passage from the Cairo Genizah, ascribed to the Kitab al-tamyiz of R. Sa'adia Gaon, in which the writer ascribes to “Judah the Alexandrian” a statute about celebrating harvest festivals (in addition to the cereal festival mentioned in Leviticus); these festivals stand fifty days apart in the calendar. [http://books.google.com/books?id=aLc...rt%22&f=false]

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