spin

Non-existence is not the point. History is. Gamera doesn't like the fact that his guy is excluded from history due to lack of demonstrably reliable material sources.


spin

Clivedurdle

[QUOTE=GakuseiDon;4257071] So what about the remaining population of Judea, Samaria, and Galilee, which would have been into the millions?

http://www.americancatholic.org/News...SFS/an0704.asp


No idea where above comes from, but millions is extremely unlikely.

Johann_Kaspar

[QUOTE=Clivedurdle;4259475]Not what the census of Cestius came with.

GakuseiDon

This link says that Josephus estimated around 2.7 million:
http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/temple11.htm

Still, even 500,000 makes the point: the overwhelming majority of Jews then didn't belong to the main sects described by Josephus. Josephus was only describing "philosophical" sects that numbered in the thousands.

aa5874

Do you have a list of all those who would be effaced? And in any event your statement is speculative, it has no basis, you have not actually done an evaulation on most of antiquity, you are just guessing.

We are discussing the historicity of Jesus the Christ as it relates to the evidence that can be obtained, no evidence can be obtained in the 1st century of Jesus the Christ, his followers, his teachings, not even heresies of Jesus the Christ are mentioned by any extra-biblical writer in the 1st century.

If I accept any personage as historical, and it can be proven that it is not so, then I will accept that finding. At one time I accepted Jesus the Christ and Santa as historical personages, but all evidence points to non-historicity.
If anyone can show, within reason, that Julius Caesar was a myth, then I will accept such a finding.

So, do you advocate that we derail the thread and verify the historicity of Pericles and every single person in antiquity, before we even discuss the historicity of Jesus the Christ.

I get the impression that it is your view that if Jesus the Christ was a myth then the whole of antiquity must be.

Again, these are the facts as they relate to the non-historicity of Jesus the Christ.
In the 1st century, among extrabiblical sources:
(1)There can be found no record of Jesus the Christ.
(2)There can be found no record of his followers.
(3)There can be found no record of his teachings.
(4)There can be found no record of heresies concerning Jesus the Christ.

If we bear in mind that biblical sources all claim that Jesus the Christ had thousands of followers, was preaching in synagogues, in the mountains, in the cities and at the seashores, was under the threat of death by the chief priests, constantly challenged by the Pharisees, was tried by Pilate, Herod and then finally Pilate again, all this in the 1st century.

The followers of Jesus the Christ, according to Acts, were growing at an alarming rate, sometimes thousands in a day, they were being persecuted, imprisoned, and even killed, again all this in the 1st century.

However, Josephus, does not have a single anecdotal word or speculative rumor on any of these biblical events.

Untheist

Now hold on just a second there. While you're correct in asserting that one would be hard-pressed to make a case for a historical Jesus, there's actually good evidence that Santa was a real person.

aa5874

To augment the non-historicity of Jesus the Christ, I will make reference to Martin Luther King Jr, a black civil rights leader, who tried to emulate the life of Jesus the Christ.

Martin Luther King Jr, born 1929 and died 1968, became known for the struggle for equal rights for black Americans, he was a Christian and a pastor. He used non-violence methods in his pursuit of equal rights.

He was imprisoned, his house was bombed, he was called a Communist, his house was wire-tapped by federal agents, he constantly received death threats and he was eventually shot to death.

Martin Luther King Jr had thousands of followers, he made hundreds of speeches, he marched and had peaceful demonstrations, he was widely known in America and outside, and he was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize.

The point is Martin Luther King Jr tried to emulate Jesus the Christ, as described in the NT, and is widely known after his death. The place where he was shot is well known, the place where he lived, his family, his friends, the thousands of followers are known. Holidays, infrastructure, and awards are named after him, all within 40 years of his death.

Now, if the life of Jesus the Christ was comparable to or exceeded the life of Martin Luther King Jr, it is intersting to note that Jesus the Christ cannot be accounted for during his own lifetime or after his death, He vanished for almost a hundred years. There is no external corroboration from any writer not linked to the Church in the time that He lived.

Chris Weimer

Dr. Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. also lived in an era of mass communication, photographic evidence, and technology unrivaled by the ancients.

aa5874

Josephus, himself, was a member of a sect whose leader was one called Banus, who lived in the desert. See 'The Life of Flavius Josephus', you can make a determination if Banus had thousands of followers.

Josephus wrote also about individual persons and those he met while living in Galilee and the surrounding area. All the works of Josephus covered a wide range of situations and a wide cross section of people.

Newton's Cat

Even his name is suspicious:

IESOUS CHRISTOS

... which anagrams to OSIRIS SET CHOUS (Chous means "grave")

cf. The Egyptian Myth of Osiris and Set in the Underworld

Someone invented him.

Even odder ...

St Peter, the "founder" of the Catholic Church, SIMWN PETROS anagrams to MORTWS PENIS (latin Mortuus penis, "dead penis")

Could it be that Christianity was founded by someone akin to Ron Hubbard?

Hubbard conjured up Xenu Etrawl, an alien Sci-fi "god"

Xenu Etrawl anagrams to WE R LUNATEX

http://www.firstchurchofxenu.com/

Extract:

'We, the First Church of Xenu and its many associates, are dedicated to exposing the lies regarding our Dark Lord and Master, Xenu Etrawl.'