Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GenesisNemesis · 02-28-2008, 04:30 PM

Foreshadowing is used a lot in works of fiction.

rickP · 02-28-2008, 04:37 PM

Ok, I'm no scholar, but didn't Jesus basically tell someone to go find a donkey so that he could fulfill the prophecy? Isn't that just self fulfilling? And didn't one gospel go so far as to say he road in two donkeys just to account for the reference to a donkey and the foal of a donkey?

Even if it actually happened, someone declaring that they're going to fulfill a prophecy by taking the exact action mentioned in the prophecy creates kind of a paradox. Someone said he would do something, but he only did it because someone had earlier said he would.

rickP · 02-28-2008, 04:39 PM

Look up 'midrash'.

Half-Life · 02-28-2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickP

Ok, I'm no scholar, but didn't Jesus basically tell someone to go find a donkey so that he could fulfill the prophecy? Isn't that just self fulfilling? And didn't one gospel go so far as to say he road in two donkeys just to account for the reference to a donkey and the foal of a donkey?

Even if it actually happened, someone declaring that they're going to fulfill a prophecy by taking the exact action mentioned in the prophecy creates kind of a paradox. Someone said he would do something, but he only did it because someone had earlier said he would.

So, Jesus read all the OT prophecies and decided "I'm going to self-fulfill all of these, right down to being crucified!! Yeah baby!!!!!"

GenesisNemesis · 02-28-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

So, Jesus read all the OT prophecies and decided "I'm going to self-fulfill all of these, right down to being crucified!! Yeah baby!!!!!"

Nope. That's not what self-fulfilling means.

Keith&Co. · 02-28-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

But that's not true. There are prophecies in the book of Revelation that aren't fulfilled yet, but we know what they say.

We are just waiting for them to be fulfilled.

Ah. But when? People on both sides of the American Civil War were certain that THAT war was the one predicted in Revelation.

How many times have people suspected, been sure, even proclaimed that NOW was the time of Revelation? It's been 'just around the corner' ever since it was penned.

It's just another prophecy that you won't know when it will come true until the post-cataclysm evaluation.

Roland · 02-28-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Coincidence? Self-fulfillment? Either of those seem more reasonable than the work of some divine hand. And, frankly, neither the "prophecy" nor its supposed "fulfillment" really seem all that amazing.

And as to the six-million lost in the Holocaust, that sure doesn't show much of a "protective hand" from a god who supposedly cares so much for his people.

Yes, it was just a mere coincidence that a nation's people were outcast out of Israel and then returned again to repopulate it.

How do you also explain the one where God said he would flow rivers through it when there was nothing but dirt in biblical times?

guess Ezekial just "got lucky", huh?

Absolutely, coincidences happen all the time. That's the nature of life.

A number of years ago, my best friend, who was about 40 and totally healthy at the time, jokingly remarked that living to the age of 44 would be kind of cool because it was such an even number. A few years later, he was diagnosed with cancer and died a few months before his 45th birthday.

Now, am I going to be stupid enough to believe he prophesied his own death or accept that it was just a tragic coincidence? Like I said, life is filled with interesting convergences. But they can be as easily chalked up to the sheer vastness and random nature of the universe as to some divine plan.

rickP · 02-28-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickP

Ok, I'm no scholar, but didn't Jesus basically tell someone to go find a donkey so that he could fulfill the prophecy? Isn't that just self fulfilling? And didn't one gospel go so far as to say he road in two donkeys just to account for the reference to a donkey and the foal of a donkey?

Even if it actually happened, someone declaring that they're going to fulfill a prophecy by taking the exact action mentioned in the prophecy creates kind of a paradox. Someone said he would do something, but he only did it because someone had earlier said he would.

So, Jesus read all the OT prophecies and decided "I'm going to self-fulfill all of these, right down to being crucified!! Yeah baby!!!!!"

Most of the scripture considered prophecy of Jesus wasn't even seen as such til well after his death. The gospel writers were retrofitting Jesus into a hodgepodge of various snatches of scripture culled from all over the Torah. Most of them are taken completely out of context. A straight reading of those source scriptures seem plainly to refer to current or very recent events at the times they were written.

Now if the Jews had a book of prophecy labeled "The prophecy of the coming Messiah" that contained all those prophecies together, it would carry alot more weight. But claiming that David whining about his situation somehow secretly refers to someone to be born several hundred years later is shoehorning. It's the same logic that makes people think Nostradamus was a seer. Reinterpreting events after the fact to fit ancient texts that were directed at ancient events does not make much of a case.

Roland · 02-28-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craigart14

How do we know this? Archaeology. Textual studies. Linguistics. Extra-biblical writings. Literary analysis. Geology. Biblical contradictions. Biblical mistakes. Common sense.

Craig

OK, fine. how about these three?

8. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem while riding on a donkey
Bible passage: Zechariah 9:9
Written: between 520 and 518 BC
Fulfilled: About 32 AD
In Zechariah 9:9, the prophet speaks of a future king presenting himself to Jerusalem while riding on a humble donkey. This foreshadowed something that happened about 500 years later: As explained in Luke 19:35-37, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and presented Himself as the Messiah, the King.
Alfred Edersheim, a Christian Jew who lived during the 1800s, studied ancient Rabbinical writings, and said that Zechariah 9:9 was often interpreted as being about a Messiah. In the book, "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah," Edersheim wrote: "The Messianic application of this verse in all its parts has already been repeatedly indicated. We may here add that there are many traditions about this donkey on which the Messiah is to ride; and so firm was the belief in it, that, according to the Talmud, `if anyone saw a donkey in his dreams, he will see salvation' (Ber 56 b)."

The name "Jesus," means "salvation" in Hebrew.
- Copyright 100prophecies.org
Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

9. Jesus was betrayed by a friend
Bible passage: Psalm 41:9
Written: about 1000 BC
Fulfilled: About 32 AD
In Psalm 41:9, King David wrote a prayer asking for mercy in his last days. In this prayer, which Jews and Christians believe was inspired by God, David wrote about a betrayal at the hand of a close friend with whom he had shared bread. This foreshadowed something that happened years later with Jesus. As explained in Matthew 26:47-50, Jesus was betrayed by Judas, one of the 12 apostles, shortly after Jesus and the apostles had shared bread during the Last Supper. Jesus was crucified by the Romans a short time later.
- Copyright 100prophecies.org
Psalm 41:9
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.

10. Zechariah foreshadowed the betrayal of Jesus for 30 pieces of silver
Bible passage: Zechariah 11:12-13
Written: between 520 and 518 BC
Fulfilled: About 32 AD
In Zechariah 11:12-13, the prophet spoke of a person being paid 30 pieces of silver to betray someone. This foreshadowed something that happened to Jesus about 500 years later. As explained in Matthew 26:15, Judas was paid 30 silver coins for his betrayal of Jesus. Judas told the Romans when and where they could arrest Jesus without being surrounded by a large crowd of Jesus' followers. But, as explained in Matthew 27:5-7, Judas later tossed the money into the Temple (the house of the Lord) and the money was used to buy a potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.
- Copyright 100prophecies.org
Zechariah 11:12-13
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

Nothing vague about these. how are you going to twist these around? it states "He will ride in on a donkey." Jesus did EXACTLY this.

How you gonna twist it?

We don't know that Jesus did any such thing. All we know is that A WRITER SAID HE DID IT, a writer who admits right up front that it was a fulfillment of a "prophecy." There's a world of difference between the two. It's amazing how gullible some people are when it comes to this sort of thing.

spin · 02-28-2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

The only point you've made is that you are apparently incapable of supporting your assertion with a rational argument and evidence. That the prophecies are not vague is only helpful to those establishing that they have not actually been fulfilled.

If they were more vague, your opponents would have a more difficult time.

How do you explain this one, no vague words here:

So as you have no response to one prophecy shot down in flames, you abandon it for now, though I'm sure you'll repeat the same claims in another venue with the same zeal as you first stated it here, and you zip out another prepared piece of apologetics aimed really at making the True Christian^TM salivate...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Luke 21:24
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

He's basically saying Jerusalem will be destroyed, right?

Well.....

2. Jesus said Jerusalem would be destroyed
Bible passage: Luke 21:24
Recorded: about 30 AD
Fulfilled: 70 AD
In Luke 21:24, Jesus said that the Jews soon would be forced out of Jerusalem and that the city would be destroyed. He said Jerusalem would be trampled upon by the "Gentiles" (non-Jews), and that the Jews would be scattered to all nations. And, that's exactly what happened. The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in the year 70, and again in the year 135. During the two destructions, the Romans killed an estimated 1.5 million Jews. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were taken as slaves to other countries, mostly throughout Europe and parts of Asia. During the next several centuries, Jews had established communities on every inhabited continent: Asia, Africa, Australia, Europe, North America and South America.

The gospel of Luke was obviously written after Mark, of which it cites at least 90%, and Mark was written after the fall of the temple, given the symbolic demonstration of the fall in the ripping of the temple curtain, opening the holy of holies up and freeing god's religion from temple control. The first historically known gospel is that of Marcion circa 140 CE. You know nothing then of when the words were put in Jesus' mouth. You don't know that you have a prophecy at all. :wave:

spin

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02-28-2008, 04:30 PM	#71
GenesisNemesis Contributor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A pale blue oblate spheroid. Posts: 20,351	Foreshadowing is used a lot in works of fiction.

02-28-2008, 04:37 PM	#72
rickP Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 1,079	Ok, I'm no scholar, but didn't Jesus basically tell someone to go find a donkey so that he could fulfill the prophecy? Isn't that just self fulfilling? And didn't one gospel go so far as to say he road in two donkeys just to account for the reference to a donkey and the foal of a donkey? Even if it actually happened, someone declaring that they're going to fulfill a prophecy by taking the exact action mentioned in the prophecy creates kind of a paradox. Someone said he would do something, but he only did it because someone had earlier said he would.

02-28-2008, 04:39 PM	#73
rickP Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 1,079	Look up 'midrash'.

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