Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Yuri Kuchinsky · 05-23-2005, 12:37 PM

Here's what Loisy says about Ignatius. According to him, the letters of Ignatius are apocryphal, and later, at least in publication, than the death of Polycarp, who seems to have died in 166, under Marcus Aurelius.

Quote:

The Birth of the Christian Religion
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co.../chapter1.html

Ignatius and Polycarp

The authenticity of the letters attributed to Ignatius
of Antioch martyred under Trajan (98-117), was at
one time strongly denied, then recognized, but has
recently become the object of a new attack. The fact
is that these letters lose their historical background if
placed in the time of Trajan, since the seven in
question inculcate a system of belief and discipline
which correspond to the conditions of the later
period when the gnostic crisis was at its height.
Moreover the Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
seems to have been interpolated into the collection
of the Ignatian letters by their author or editor, for
the purpose of recommending them; this alone
would seem to prove them apocryphal and later, at
least in publication, than the death of Polycarp.

Irenaeus quotes the Ignatian letter to the Romans,
which we must suppose in existence about 170, but
without naming the author whom he seems not to
know as a quasi-apostolic person connected with
Polycarp. Neither can Polycarp's Epistle; when freed
from its artificial attachment to the Ignatian letters,
be dated in the reign of Trajan; it belongs to the last
years of its author's life. [36]

[NOTE 36: The year 155, assigned by many as the date of Polycarp's martyrdom, ill accords with what we know of his coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus. It is more probable that Polycarp died under Marcus Aurelius, in 166, as Eusebius indicates. Thus the letter to the Philippians could have been written between 150 and 160.]

In this way we can
explain this author's apparent knowledge of the
collection of the thirteen Epistles of Paul, the Acts
of the Apostles, First Peter, the synoptic tradition of
Jesus' discourses, the Epistles of John and his
reproval, without theological reasoning, of
Marcion's Docetic gnosis by utilizing 1 John iv, 2-3.

The Johannine writings,
whose existence we find him attesting, have but a
very slight influence on his thought and style, which
would be extremely surprising if the fourth Gospel
were the work of an apostle or of an apostolic
person of whom Polycarp himself is said to have
been the disciple.

All the best,

Yuri.

andrewcriddle · 05-23-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

NOTE 36: The year 155, assigned by many as the date of Polycarp's martyrdom, ill accords with what we know of his coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus. It is more probable that Polycarp died under Marcus Aurelius, in 166, as Eusebius indicates. Thus the letter to the Philippians could have been written between 150 and 160

a/ Although the dates of Roman bishops in this period are IMO reasonably reliable I would have no problem with shifting the accession of Anicetus from its traditional date of 155 to 153 (with Polycarp visiting Anicetus in 154 and being executed in 155)

b/ Even if 155 is too early 166 is probably too late. A possible alternative to 155 is 159 (both probably have Nisan 2 on a Saturday as seems required by the Martyrdom. )

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 05-23-2005, 05:57 PM

There is a brief but helpful discussion of the date of Polycarp's martyrdom at http://www.ccel.org/r/richardson/fathers/htm/v.htm it suggests a date of 156

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan · 05-23-2005, 06:40 PM

Detering's discussion of Clement and Ignatius in the Dutch Radicals is online here

http://www.radikalkritik.de/Clem_eng.pdf

Vorkosigan

andrewcriddle · 05-24-2005, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

In other words, we're basically in the same position as the chronicler.

Do we have any reliable information about bishops Hero, Cornelius, and Eros or are they mere ciphers?

Stephen

As far as I know there is, apart from their names and dates, really no information whatever about them.

(FWIW Apart from Clement the bishops of Rome before Anicetus (c 155-165) are little more than ciphers. We have odd pieces of credible information; eg Telesphorus was martyred, Pius was the brother of Hermas the author of the 'Shepherd' but little more.)

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 05-24-2005, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Detering's discussion of Clement and Ignatius in the Dutch Radicals is online here

http://www.radikalkritik.de/Clem_eng.pdf

Vorkosigan

Thanks for the link.

However it is more a historical survey than a discussion in the light of modern research.

Andrew Criddle

S.C.Carlson · 05-24-2005, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

As far as I know there is, apart from their names and dates, really no information whatever about them.

That's what I was afraid of.

Quote:

(FWIW Apart from Clement the bishops of Rome before Anicetus (c 155-165) are little more than ciphers. We have odd pieces of credible information; eg Telesphorus was martyred, Pius was the brother of Hermas the author of the 'Shepherd' but little more.)

And to make matters worse for me, I have problems with the credibility of that last bit of information. For what its worth, I tend to date the Muratorian Canon to be contemporaneous with Hippolytus (d. c. 235).

Yuri Kuchinsky · 05-24-2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Detering's discussion of Clement and Ignatius in the Dutch Radicals is online here

http://www.radikalkritik.de/Clem_eng.pdf

Vorkosigan

Hi, Vork,

I liked the 8 reasons there why Ignatius' letters are not authentic. For example, here's #3,

Quote:

3. Ignatius writes of "Magnesia on the Maeander," "Tralles in Asia," "Philadelphia in Asia," "Smyrna in Asia," and "Ephesus in Asia" in the introduction of the letters that are written to the Churches. Does Ignatius need to remind people in these churches that these places are to be found in Asia and not in Europe?

Also, this is quite relevant,

Quote:

...there is a tradition, which has Ignatius die as a martyr in the winter of 115-116 on the instruction of Trajanus while in Antioch (Johannes Malalas, Chronographie, ed. Dindorf p. 275). This tradition must be more ancient than what is assumed in the letters of Ignatius.

Regards,

Yuri.

andrewcriddle · 05-24-2005, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky

Also, this is quite relevant,

Quote:

...there is a tradition, which has Ignatius die as a martyr in the winter of 115-116 on the instruction of Trajanus while in Antioch (Johannes Malalas, Chronographie, ed. Dindorf p. 275). This tradition must be more ancient than what is assumed in the letters of Ignatius.

Regards,

Yuri.

As I posted above, apart from the general problem of a very late witness such as Malalas there is the specific issue that Malalas' account presupposes that the feast of Ignatius occurs in late December.

When Volkmar and others first put their ideas forward in the 1850's and 1860's this could very legitimately be regarded as the primitive date.

However subsequent work beginning with Wright in 1866 has established that the primitive date was October 17th with the December date probably introduced much later.

Andrew Criddle

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-23-2005, 05:57 PM	#13
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	There is a brief but helpful discussion of the date of Polycarp's martyrdom at http://www.ccel.org/r/richardson/fathers/htm/v.htm it suggests a date of 156 Andrew Criddle

05-23-2005, 06:40 PM	#14
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Detering's discussion of Clement and Ignatius in the Dutch Radicals is online here http://www.radikalkritik.de/Clem_eng.pdf Vorkosigan

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.