Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jimmy Higgins · 09-13-2010, 04:22 PM

This is what I was taught at the Catholic College I went to. It pretty much was a work in progress. As time went on, the myth grew as it was becoming somewhat clear what was expected wasn't going to happen.

We were taught that Gospel according to Paul was written around 55 C.E. and it wrote of a Jesus being the Christ when he returned, 1 Thes 4:13. So in Paul, he wasn't Christ yet.

Time passed.

Paul around 65 C.E. in 1 Corinthians 15:1 notes that Jesus is Christ because he has risen. So he was da man due to the Resurrection.

Mark in 65 C.E. notes that Jesus was Christ in his ministry... so Jesus is da man during his Hippy phase.

Luke in 85 C.E. notes that Jesus is Christ in his boyhood, Luke 2:41. You may notice a pattern here.

Matthew in Matt 2:10 says he was Christ since birth.

John in 100 C.E. hits it out of the park by saying Jesus was da man a priori.

He was supposed to come back. As time passed and he didn't, well, stories had to adapt. I read somewhere, a Physics book I believe of all places, that Thomas Jefferson scratched out all mystical references in the New Testament.

aa5874 · 09-13-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins

This is what I was taught at the Catholic College I went to. It pretty much was a work in progress. As time went on, the myth grew as it was becoming somewhat clear what was expected wasn't going to happen.

So who was spreading rumors or lies about Jesus?

His disciples? The apostles?

ph2ter · 09-14-2010, 12:24 AM

Maybe all started with a collection of oracles taken from the OT about anticipating messiah.
When that was merged with the philosophical background taken from Philo, the picture crystallized. The Jewish expectation was a real human messiah, so emerging picture of messiah was forced to take some form of physical appearance. In the beginning it was thought that his time on earth will happen very soon in the future, but then someone started to argue that he already saw him and received a message from him. Very soon there were more of them who claimed that they 'saw' him. Afterward those who 'saw' him took over the whole messianic movement. This spiritual entity 'said' to one of them that he was already crucified and resurrected exactly as they knew that before from the OT oracles. In the meantime the picture of messiah accreted more and more things from the OT prophecies. The emphasis was on the crucifixion, the baptism and a sacral meal, all that ritual stuff which was needed for initiation and consummation of this new religion. At some point someone from the second generation of messianists made a literary creation about earthly carrier of messiah based on the interpretation of OT oracles by the first generation. His work was probably ordered by the sect highest officials. They needed such work to complete their religious worldview. In that work he put earthly carrier of messiah in the time immediately before the first generation of messianists started to claim that they 'saw' him. The whole work was brilliant and because it was in resonance with the general and unspoken desire, the idea took over the whole movement.

DrZoidberg · 09-14-2010, 01:55 AM

Chinese whispers spring to mind. Even if the first Bible (if there is such a thing) contains eye witness accounts, it was still copied by hand, by predominantly illiterate scribes. The earliest Christians were dirt poor and had the worst set of skills to keep the copies accurate. As the huge variety of early Bibles clearly prove.

ExMormon_Dude · 09-14-2010, 02:35 AM

Based on my limited knowledge of the MJ/HJ debate and some of the literature devoted to the argument, I'm inclined to think that it's a little and possibly allot of all the above:constern01:

Though I admit I've always been swayed by Kenneth Humphreys & Mountainmans theories.

aa5874 · 09-14-2010, 06:14 AM

The authors of the Gospels showed EXACTLY how their Jesus was fabricated. They used Hebrew Scripture.

There is no need to guess.

Virtually every significant event or words of Jesus was to fulfill the words of the prophets or as it was written in the scriptures.

The Jesus story does NOT appear to be a product of mass hallucinations, mass amnesia, mass hysteria or mass embellishments.

Jesus story was fulfilled prophecy.

Mt 1:22 -

Quote:

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,...

Without Hebrew scripture, the words of the prophets, it would appear that there would not be a Jesus story.

There is no need to guess.

Mt 2:17 -

Quote:

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet......

Mt 4:14 -

Quote:

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet...

Mt 27:35 -

Quote:

[]
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.....

The authors have already told us how the Jesus story was fabricated.

Mt 26:56 -

Quote:

But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.....

Solo · 09-14-2010, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The HJ position would fundamentally reflect the eye-witness approach.

Not necessarily.
It is possible that there might be those who think Jesus to have been some person, but who dont see much in the way of eye witness input.

Let's not be bashful. In Germany, this sort of naive historicism would be laughed off for over a century. Bultmann, who ridiculed the idea that there was no historical Jesus, set the tone by maintaining that Jesus sayings were oral traditions attributed to him.

Earl Doherty IMO missed a great opportunity to squash the nonsense called 'Q', which was started as a quest for Papias 'sayings of the Lord'. The main purpose of this exercise was to prevent the literary-origin argument, which after D.F. Strauss knocked off GJohn, from being effectively applied to the Synoptics as well (as Bruno Bauer nearly suceeded in doing). Generations of German theologians figured that if they could keep distilling the synoptics to a 'pre-gospel' written material closer to Jesus' timeline they could argue (for some sayings at least) historical deposits that went all the way back to HJ. After the idea Q gained foothold in the English-speaking world, it became a default history-saving tool for the Synoptics pretty much everywhere. If one retains the priority of Mark (which I believe is demonstrable) and removes Q (i.e. agrees that Luke copied Matthew), then the case for all three being literary inventions (Matt and Luke, incrementally) gets solid footing.

Mark would be the ingenious Paulinist allegory, which was subtly attacked and dumbed down by Matthew for proselytic purposes, with Luke creating the middle-ground, glorious history of the Christian foundation.

My own view is that there was a historical Jesus for whom Paul provides indirect evidence. It is possible - even probable - that some of the 'events' in Mark have historical background and would have been used by Mark to wow the Petrine Nazoreans in trying to get them to accept the cross of Christ.

Best,
Jiri

spamandham · 09-14-2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

My own view is that there was a historical Jesus for whom Paul provides indirect evidence.

What indirect evidence are you referring to?

aa5874 · 09-14-2010, 10:42 AM

The EVIDENCE for the fabrication of the Jesus story has been documented. There is no need to imagine or make stuff up.

1. The conception and birth of Jesus.

Matt 1.21-22

Quote:

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet...

2. The birthplace of Jesus.

Matt 2.4-5

Quote:

4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet...

3. The fleeing to Egypt.

Quote:

14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet....

3. The killing of the innocent.

Matt 2:16-17 -

Quote:

16 Then Herod.......... slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet...

4. The fore-runner to Jesus.

Matt. 3.1-3

Quote:

1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2and saying, Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah....

5. The baptism of Jesus.

Quote:

See Psalms 22.7 and Isaiah 42.1

6. The temptation of Jesus.

Quote:

See Exodus 34.28, Deut. 6.13-16, 8.3 and Psalms 91.11.

6. The preaching of Jesus.

Matthew 5:17-18 -

Quote:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

7. The healing of the sick.

Matt 8. 16-17

Quote:

16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet....

8. The preaching in parables.

Matt 13.13-14

Quote:

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias.....

9. The riding of the ass in the Triumphal entry.

Matt 21.3-5

Quote:

....Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her........ The Lord hath need of them...... 4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet....

10. The conflagration or apocalypse.

Mt 24:34 -

Quote:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

11. The betrayal and arrest of Jesus.

Matt 26. 55-56

Quote:

Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

12. The crucifixion of Jesus.

Matt27.35

Quote:

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet....

It is CLEAR. The EVIDENCE of antiquity has been documented. Jesus was FABRICATED using scripture that was BELIEVED to be prophecy.

The ORIGIN of Jesus is SCRIPTURE not history.

Petergdi · 09-14-2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Mark would be the ingenious Paulinist allegory,

Mark doesn't seem to me to have that much in common with Paul.

For example: the kurios/doulos metaphor for discipleship, which is a huge part of Paul's letters, is nearly or entirely missing in Mark. I don't claim it to be Pauline in origin, but only that it is so strong in Paul that it would be astonishing to see it missing from someone who was a follower of Paul's. Matthew in contrast is full of the kurios/doulos metaphor.

Peter.

View Poll Results: How do you think the writing of the christian gospels began?
It was based on first hand accounts of real events.	4	4.94%
It was based on the developing oral traditions of the nascent religion.	39	48.15%
It was a literary creation.	22	27.16%
None of the above. (Please explain.)	9	11.11%
Don't Know.	5	6.17%
Carthago delenda est	2	2.47%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

09-14-2010, 02:35 AM	#25
ExMormon_Dude Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Living in Melbourne, Australia. Posts: 9	All of the above? Based on my limited knowledge of the MJ/HJ debate and some of the literature devoted to the argument, I'm inclined to think that it's a little and possibly allot of all the above:constern01: Though I admit I've always been swayed by Kenneth Humphreys & Mountainmans theories.

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09-13-2010, 04:22 PM	#21
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	This is what I was taught at the Catholic College I went to. It pretty much was a work in progress. As time went on, the myth grew as it was becoming somewhat clear what was expected wasn't going to happen. We were taught that Gospel according to Paul was written around 55 C.E. and it wrote of a Jesus being the Christ when he returned, 1 Thes 4:13. So in Paul, he wasn't Christ yet. Time passed. Paul around 65 C.E. in 1 Corinthians 15:1 notes that Jesus is Christ because he has risen. So he was da man due to the Resurrection. Mark in 65 C.E. notes that Jesus was Christ in his ministry... so Jesus is da man during his Hippy phase. Luke in 85 C.E. notes that Jesus is Christ in his boyhood, Luke 2:41. You may notice a pattern here. Matthew in Matt 2:10 says he was Christ since birth. John in 100 C.E. hits it out of the park by saying Jesus was da man a priori. He was supposed to come back. As time passed and he didn't, well, stories had to adapt. I read somewhere, a Physics book I believe of all places, that Thomas Jefferson scratched out all mystical references in the New Testament.

09-14-2010, 12:24 AM	#23
ph2ter Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 219	Maybe all started with a collection of oracles taken from the OT about anticipating messiah. When that was merged with the philosophical background taken from Philo, the picture crystallized. The Jewish expectation was a real human messiah, so emerging picture of messiah was forced to take some form of physical appearance. In the beginning it was thought that his time on earth will happen very soon in the future, but then someone started to argue that he already saw him and received a message from him. Very soon there were more of them who claimed that they 'saw' him. Afterward those who 'saw' him took over the whole messianic movement. This spiritual entity 'said' to one of them that he was already crucified and resurrected exactly as they knew that before from the OT oracles. In the meantime the picture of messiah accreted more and more things from the OT prophecies. The emphasis was on the crucifixion, the baptism and a sacral meal, all that ritual stuff which was needed for initiation and consummation of this new religion. At some point someone from the second generation of messianists made a literary creation about earthly carrier of messiah based on the interpretation of OT oracles by the first generation. His work was probably ordered by the sect highest officials. They needed such work to complete their religious worldview. In that work he put earthly carrier of messiah in the time immediately before the first generation of messianists started to claim that they 'saw' him. The whole work was brilliant and because it was in resonance with the general and unspoken desire, the idea took over the whole movement.

09-14-2010, 01:55 AM	#24
DrZoidberg Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 5,746	Chinese whispers spring to mind. Even if the first Bible (if there is such a thing) contains eye witness accounts, it was still copied by hand, by predominantly illiterate scribes. The earliest Christians were dirt poor and had the worst set of skills to keep the copies accurate. As the huge variety of early Bibles clearly prove.

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