JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing The Journey...

The Structure of "Mark" is Dual in Individual Components and Overall Structure. The Overall Split is at Half The Way at 8:29 when Peter Understands Who Jesus is (just like The Demons):

First Half:

Teaching & Healing Ministry

Glory

Unimportant

Parables to De-emphasize

The Disciples don't understand

The Disciples want to talk about

Command not to tell

Second Half:

Passion Ministry

Humiliation

Important

Plain instruction to Emphasize

The Disciples do understand

The Disciples don't want to talk about

Command to tell


JW:
We can tell what's Important to the Author by What is Changing during the Story. While "Authority" is constant in it's Opposition to Jesus it's The Conflict with Jesus and The Disciples that is Changing. Some of the most Important Information in the Gospel is given by The Author in Response to the 3 Passion predictions:

Notice Peter as Opposition to Jesus:

8:
29 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Peter answered, "You are the Christ.[b]"
30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life[c] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

Jesus ID'ed as Christ. [A]

Jesus' command not to tell about it.

Jesus teaches that he must be Rejected by Authority. [B]

Jesus explains this Plainly.

Peter talks Privately. [C]

Peter understands and rebukes Jesus. [D]

Jesus rebukes Peter. [D]

Peter ID'ed as Satan [A]

Jesus tells everyone about it. [C]

Peter rejected by Jesus' authority. [B]

Jesus explains that you must be Rejected by Authority.

If you don't follow Jesus you will be Rejected by Jesus' Authority.

Lesson with Peter as Example - Follow Jesus' example of being Rejected by Authority. Another Stylish Inverse Contrast Story of Jesus/Peter for Vork.

Historical Commentary - After Jesus' death Peter is with Authority in Jerusalem Teaching of Jesus' Teaching & Healing and not his Passion.


Notice The Disciples as Opposition to Jesus:

9:
30 "They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, 31because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." 32 But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.
33 They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the road?" 34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest.
35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."
36 He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37"Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."

Implication of private teaching is Jesus is talking plainly. [A]

Jesus teaches that he must be Rejected by Authority. [B]

No one understands and all are afraid to ask. [C]
(Note similarity to The Women at The Tomb)

The Disciples are talking privately. [A]

The Disciples talking of being Accepted by Authority. [B]

Jesus understands and asks them. [C]

Jesus explains that whoever wants to be First must be Last (without adding Last will be First).

Lesson with The Disciples as Example - Authority comes from Service and not Hierarchy.

Historical Commentary - After Jesus' death The Disciples are establishing Authority and Hierarchy in Jerusalem and not Acting like Jesus.


It's Hard To Be A Saint In The City

Notice James and John as Opposition to Jesus:

10:
31 "But many who are first will be last, and the last first."
32They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33 "We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise."
35 Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask."
36 "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
37 They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory."
38 "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"
39 "We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."
41 When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

"They were on their way up to Jerusalem" - Understand Dear Reader?

"But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

Jesus will be Rejected by Authority. [A]

Jesus will be Humiliated. [B]

James and John ask Jesus to Serve them. [C]

James and John want to be Accepted by Jesus' Authority [A]

James and John want Glory. [B]

Jesus asks James and John to Serve others. [C]

"whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all."

Lesson with James and John as Example - Authority comes from Service and not Hierarchy. Whoever wants to be First should be primarily a Servant.

Historical Commentary - After Jesus' death James established his Authority and Hierarchy in Jerusalem as Leader of The Jerusalem Church. Notice that the Context of Peter's Lesson was Discipleship and that of James' Lesson was Leadership. More evidence that it was James and not Peter that was Leader of The Jerusalem Church.


Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
You need to decide if your "Mark" is Threatening the destruction of The Temple or Predicting it:

11: (NIV)
12 "The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written:
" 'My house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations'[c]? But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'[d]"
18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.
19 When evening came, they[e] went out of the city.
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
22 "Have[f] faith in God," Jesus answered. 23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."[g]

JW:
X-Uh-Jesus:
Intercalation:

1) Curse Fig Tree

2) Cast out Evil Temple Spirits

3) Fig Tree Withers

"Mark's" Jesus' X-Uh-Jesus:
Prayer can accomplish forgiveness of sins. This could come in handy if you have no Temple to forgive sins.

So Michael, here are the problems so far with the Position that "Mark" was not Predicting the destruction of The Temple:

1) The Jews of the Time had no conception of the destruction of The Temple. Paul's writings make no mention of this prediction. Where do you see such a prediction in Jewish writings? Therefore, "Mark" must have known of it and hence, his "Prediction".

2) Jesus' Temple Exorcism has been Intercalated between the Destruction of the fig tree. Sounds like a Prediction of Temple destruction to me since the Intercalation Predicts the Future of the middle, but just in a Subtle way.

3) Jesus Ends the Pericope with a Solution to the Destruction of The Temple, Prayer.

So which is it Michael, Threat or Prediction? Just like "Mark's" The Jews had to choose between Jesus Barabbas (rebellion) or Jesus Barabbas (peace) so too do you have to choose.



Joseph

JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing... Go Go Joseph

In further consideration of "Mark's" Possible Replacement Theology, let's keep looking at the other Brothers of "Mark's" Jesus: (NIV)

6:
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! 3Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Footnotes:
1. Mark 6:3 Greek Joses, a variant of Joseph"

"Joseph". Once upon a Time there was another famous Brother Joseph:

Genesis 35:
"Jacob had twelve sons:
23 The sons of Leah:
Reuben the firstborn of Jacob,
Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Zebulun.
24 The sons of Rachel:
Joseph and Benjamin."

So, regarding Jesus' supposed Brothers, we see all but one Name from the Genesis story, Joseph, Judas (Judah) and Simon. The one name that doesn't match is "James" which is a derivative of "Jacob". Could it be that "Mark" listed "James" as a Brother of his Jesus just because James really was The Brother of Jesus?

Now let's look for "Joseph" in "Mark". Christian tradition is unanimous that "Joseph" was the father, at least in some fashion, of Jesus (although Paul never mentions this Joseph). So one would expect that in a Story of Jesus, Joseph would be mentioned First:

"1The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.[a]
2It is written in Isaiah the prophet:
"I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way"[b]—
3"a voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.'"

No mention of Father Joseph. "Son of God" is a Forgery of Subsequent Christianity. So no mention of any Father. The following quotes from the Jewish Bible indicate that Jesus was "Generated" from The Jewish Bible. Cool.
One observation that I've never seen any Christian commentary make is doesn't it seem strange that a Father Joseph here would name a son Joseph? "Mark" seems to have avoided this problem by not mentioning a Father Joseph. If Joseph was not First than Where is he?:

1:
10 "As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Jesus learns that his Father is God, in some fashion. Still looking for Joseph:

3:
31 "Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

There's Brother Joseph. Sounds like a Replacement Theme. Interesting that Jesus doesn't ask who his Father is.

6:
"Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. 7Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil[b] spirits."

The Twelve. Jesus real Brothers. Similar to Genesis except 12 Brothers would make 13 in all and that's bad luck. Need to get it down to 12.

9:
7 "Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"

That Voice again. Where the hell is Joseph?

12:
35 "While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, "How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ[h] is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '[i] 37David himself calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"
The large crowd listened to him with delight."

Jesus provides a clue. He is not son of David. Regent Philipian, next question.

13:
12 "Brother will betray brother to death"

Brother will betray brother, just like Genesis.

14:
10 "Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. 11They were delighted to hear this and promised to give him money."

Genesis 37:
26 "Judah said to his brothers, "What will we gain if we kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 Come, let's sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him; after all, he is our brother, our own flesh and blood." His brothers agreed."

So Historized Fiction repeats itself. And...

Genesis 40:
9 "So the chief cupbearer told Joseph his dream. He said to him, "In my dream I saw a vine in front of me, 10 and on the vine were three branches. As soon as it budded, it blossomed, and its clusters ripened into grapes. 11 Pharaoh's cup was in my hand, and I took the grapes, squeezed them into Pharaoh's cup and put the cup in his hand."
12 "This is what it means," Joseph said to him. "The three branches are three days. 13 Within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your position, and you will put Pharaoh's cup in his hand, just as you used to do when you were his cupbearer. 14 But when all goes well with you, remember me and show me kindness; mention me to Pharaoh and get me out of this prison. 15 For I was forcibly carried off from the land of the Hebrews, and even here I have done nothing to deserve being put in a dungeon."

Drinking the fruit of the vine from The Cup. Forcibly carried off from the land of the Hebrews. Wrongly incarcerated. Restored in Three Days. Sound familar Dear Reader?

14:
"63 "The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him."

Now there's a Joseph, Joseph Caiphais, the High Priest. But instead of a Joseph Commending Jesus this Joseph is Condemning Jesus.

15:
38 "The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and[d] saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son[e] of God!"

Confirmation from a Roman guard that Jesus was Son of God. Actually "the" is another Forgery, it should be "a". What better witness could you want than from a trained professional who according to "Matthew" lied about watching Jesus.

15:
"40Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome."

There's Brother Joseph. Still a brother unlike Judah and Simon.

15:
43 "Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. 44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb."

Finally, at The End, a Joseph Father figure.

15:
"Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid."

And after the Burial of Jesus even James is no longer a Brother. Only Joseph is the fellow son of Mary.

Quite unexpected that at The Beginning there is no Father Joseph for the Birth and not until The End, for the Burial is there a...



Joseph

michael wellenberg

I suggest three main reasons :
First, the question whether the Jewish food laws were to be observed in a Christian community both by Jewish and Gentile members, and whether a non-observance would forebid table fellowship was not of importance any more.
But for Mark it was an issue that was worth dealing with, even at length in ch. 7, for it obviously was an important problem for his community which demanded device.
It should be noted here that Mark was describing Jesus as obedient to the Jewish law (cf. for instance 1:44), and that his statement “So he (Jesus) declared all foods to be clean” (7:19b) reveals a dissimilitude which is to be attributed to Mark´s hand.
Thus Mark made his position clear which had to be followed by his community for the sake of its harmony.
But the problem that the community struggled with was a problem of the forties.
Second, the vivid description of the Twelve. The addressees of Mark´s attacks are men of flesh and blood, I cannot see them as pale phantoms of the past, serving only as foils for true discipleship or mere surrogates for real opponents. So the target of Mark´s enmity are the Twelve, headed by Peter, as Mark´s contemporary leading collegium of the Jerusalem community.
Third, Mark more or less explicitly refers by 10:38-39 to the martyrdom of James the Zebedee which is to date 42/43, but he does not allude to Peter´s martyrdom which according to common belief occurred in the mid-sixties. Why Mark would behave this way, if he had known of Peter´s death as a martyr, is a question difficult to answer.

MW

JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing...

In further consideration of "Mark's" Possible Replacement Theology, let's keep looking at the other Brothers of "Mark's" Jesus: (NIV)

6:
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! 3Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Footnotes:
1. Mark 6:3 Greek Joses, a variant of Joseph"

"Judas". Observe that "Judas" is the Greek version of the Hebrew "Judah". Once upon a Time there was another famous Brother Judah:

Genesis 35:
"Jacob had twelve sons:
23 The sons of Leah:
Reuben the firstborn of Jacob,
Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Zebulun.
24 The sons of Rachel:
Joseph and Benjamin."

So, regarding Jesus' supposed Brothers, we see all but one Name from the Genesis story, Joseph, Judas (Judah) and Simon. The one name that doesn't match is "James" which is a derivative of "Jacob". Could it be that "Mark" listed "James" as a Brother of his Jesus just because James really was The Brother of Jesus?

Now let's look for "Judah" in "Mark". (Emphasis mine saith the Lord)

3:
11 "Whenever the evil[a] spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." 12But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was.
13 Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14He appointed twelve—designating them apostles[b]—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons. 16These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter 17James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder 18Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[c]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23 So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
31Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

JW:
Let's summarize the Action:

1) Jesus ID'ed by Bad Spirits.

2) Jesus calls The Disciples to him (in "Mark", being called by Jesus is Bad. Coming to Jesus is Good) including Judah.

3) Jesus' brothers claim Jesus has a Bad Spirit.

4) The Teachers of The Law claim Jesus has a Bad Spirit.

5) Jesus responds that if he had a Bad Spirit he couldn't cast out Bad Spirits.

"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." - More Separationist Evidence Julian. "Mark's" Jesus is explaining that it's okay to blaspheme Jesus, the man, but not the Holy (Good) Spirit inside of him.

6) Jesus' Brothers call Jesus to them.

7) Jesus responds that his true Brothers do God's will (as opposed to Man's will).


6:
1 Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. 2When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! 3Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
4Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. 7Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil[b] spirits.
8These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. 10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
12They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them."

JW:
Let's summarize the Action:

1) People who Know Jesus don't Believe him because they Know his Brothers.

2) People who Don't Know Jesus Believe his Replacement Brothers because they don't Know them.


13:
12 "Brother will betray brother to death"

Brother will betray brother, just like Genesis.

14:
10 "Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. 11They were delighted to hear this and promised to give him money."

Genesis 37:
26 "Judah said to his brothers, "What will we gain if we kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 Come, let's sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him; after all, he is our brother, our own flesh and blood." His brothers agreed."

38:
1 "At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah."

So Historized Fiction repeats itself.

14:
43 "Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders.
44Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard." 45Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Rabbi!" and kissed him. 46The men seized Jesus and arrested him. 47Then one of those standing near drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

15:
"40Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome."

There's Brother Joseph. Still a brother unlike Judah and Simon. Regarding Brother Judah:

14:
21..."But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

JW:
So in Summary, regarding Jesus' supposed Brothers and Possible Markan Replacement Theology:

1) James. Brother James is shown as Rejecting Jesus. Disciple James is shown as Rejecting Jesus. No Replacement James shown as Accepting Jesus. "Mark's" Conclusion - James was the Real Brother of Jesus and The Real Disciple of Jesus who Rejected Impossible Jesus.

2) Joseph. Brother Joseph is shown as Rejecting Jesus. No Disciple Joseph shown as Rejecting Jesus.

15:
"Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid."

And after the Burial of Jesus even James is no longer a Brother. Only Joseph is the fellow son of Mary.

15:
42 "It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. 44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb."

The Replacement Joseph shown as Accepting Jesus. "Arimathea" means "best disciple town". Joseph is looking for the Kingdom of God. Joseph Accepts the Dead Jesus.

"Mark's" Conclusion - Joseph was a Fictional Real Brother of Jesus and The Idealized Disciple of Jesus who Accepted Impossible Jesus. (Connected to the Faithful Joseph from Genesis).

3) Judah. Brother Judah is shown as Rejecting Jesus. Disciple Judah is shown as Rejecting Jesus. No Replacement Judah shown as Accepting Jesus. "Mark's" Conclusion - Judah was a Fictional Brother of Jesus and represented The Real Jews who knew Jesus and Rejected/Betrayed Impossible Jesus.

4) Simon. Brother Simon is shown as Rejecting Jesus. Disciple Simon is shown as Rejecting Jesus. Replacement Simon shown as Carrying Jesus' Cross. "Mark's" Conclusion - Simon was the Real Disciple of Jesus who Rejected Impossible Jesus.

"Mark" has a lot of Anonymous people in his Gospel so the Names really stand out. Let's compare the Names of "Mark's" Jesus' Brothers to other characters in the Gospel and their Function:

1) James - Name Matches to the second most important Disciple.

2) Joseph - Name matches to the only apparent Follower of Jesus at his Death.

3) Judah - Name matches to the Betrayer of Jesus.

4) Simon - Name matches to the most important Disciple.

If we try and rate the characters in "Mark" (other than Jesus) as to Importance in the Story I would get:

1) Simon (Disciple)

2) James (Disciple)

3) John (Disciple)

4) Judah (Disciple)

5) John (Baptist)

6) Joseph (Follower)

In my mind 4 of these Match up with Jesus' supposed Brothers and the other 2 are both "John's", neither one of which believed in Impossible Jesus.

Exxxcellent Evidence that "Mark's" Jesus' supposed Brothers are largely Fictional creations for Theological/Literary purposes.

And, is it just a coincidence that the young man left to Explain is...



Joseph

I Come Because I Have To I Am The One Who Sees

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

michael wellenberg

Perhaps I was not that accurate in my first reply to your arguments. Let me give you a more detailed answer.

Mark´s citations of the OT prove his knowledge of scripture, not his knowledge of the temple´s destruction. OT ´passages referring to the temple´s being destroyed (like Amos 2:4-5 for example) are threats like Mark´s : when they were written the temple was still intact.

If Mark knew Josephus´Wars, how can you explain why he does not mention the conflagration destroying Jerusalem with the temple ? This would certainly have been the most vivid detail of a report of anyone who witnessed the conquest.

Even given your theory that Mark 13 functions as a typology being right, does this prove that Mark was written after 70 ? It looks more like an argument in my favor, for Mark is not describing historical events, in this case.

"Being taken for a divine being" : Where in Mark do you find an allusion to Mark´s assuming Jesus as divine being ? Mark 10:18 denies clearly such deification.
"Suffering from jelous enemies" : Mark 13:9-13 could allude to Mic 7:5-6 or Isa 9:19, for instance.
"Crucifixions, resurrections, empty tombs" : is a knowledge of these issues only attributable to an author in the 2nd century ?
And, in general, how can the existence of these issues both in Hellenistic fiction and in Mark prove that he wrote subsequently ?

As far as I can see there are only 3 full references (8:35 ; 13:12-13 (see above) ; 10:30) and 1/2 reference (10:39 for James and John) to persecution in Mark.
Neither these few references nor assumed anti-Jewish polemics "point to a time long after 40" or after 70, respectively. Debate, confrontation, hostility between early church and Jewry began very early (may I remind of Acts 8:1 ?)

I didn´t say that ch. 13 were based on a source, I pointed at Mark´s description of the tribulation (vv 12-19) that is supposedly based on scripture (see, for example, Mic 7:5-7 ; Dan 9:26 ; 11:31).

"For my name´s sake" does not automatically mean that Mark and his community called themselves "Christians".

Isn´t this a bit like combing one´s hair in the adverse direction ? Is it really conceivable that Mark took Peter as a "sparring partner" for James, and the disciples as negative examples ?

Regards

Michael

michael wellenberg

Having considered your arguments I try to give some answers.
The Jews of the time, and among them Mark, could have had such because there are OT pieces that may be taken as prophecies to a destruction, Amos 2:4-5, for instance, or Zeph 11:1-2a. In these verses the means of destruction is fire, so, bearing them in mind, Mark could easily mention the fire destroying Jerusalem in 70 as fulfilled prophecy, if he actually witnessed it. He does not, however.
The prayer that ends the pericope is not a solution of the temple´s destruction because there is another reference to prayer (9:29) as a means of restoring integrity – the casting out of the traders as well as the mountain´s (= the temple hierarchy´s) being thrown into the sea also imply a later intact condition. So this cannot be a prediction of destruction. Anyway, a prayer could never have a negative result.
The threat to the temple is uttered after Jesus had left the temple never to return again not having been welcomed as the Messiah. There is a threat not only because of 13:2 but still more in regard of 13:14. Only after Jesus had left the temple taking with him the glory of God there was the possibility of establishing a desolating (picture of) sacrilege, but since after 70 there was no place any more where to put it, Mark could not write after 70, and, vice versa, his threat to the temple was not reality when he wrote.

Michael

jakejonesiv

No, this is not true.

Jerome, Commentary on the Bible
On Matthew 24.15 [So when you see the standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation.]: or to the statue of the mounted Hadrian, which stands to this very day on the site of the Holy of Holies.

Jake Jones

michael wellenberg

I try to make the point more clear.
The destruction of the temple would, in Mark´s conviction, be only possible, if at all, after God would have left it. The temple was actually destroyed in the summer of 70 AD.
So if Mark wrote after this event he could not say that a desolating sacrilege would be established in the temple as he would have known that no abomination (sacrilege) could make the temple desolate which not existed any more because God had abandoned it.
Therefore, Jerome says "on the site of the Holy of Holies" - no statue could make the site desolate any more.

Michael

jakejonesiv

Au_GMark gave himself away in Mark 13:20, when he slips into the present tense. "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days." NASB. This shows that much of the alleged prochecy had already been fulfilled in the time of the author.
Jake