storytime

But did he speak truth to power? Declaring himself god in the flesh was blasphemy with a death sentence applied. But Jesus knew this. I compare Jesus to a suicide bomber and in his situation and time, he used offensive language instead of grenades. Accusing the rulers at Jerusalem, calling them sons of their father the devil while attempting to soft-cover his remarks in acknowledgment of the Pharisees being indeed the sons of Abraham. Jesus was a militant and angry Jew among his Jewish brethren, just one of many within Judaism then and as even can be seen today by some Jewish fellows who take matters into their own hands. Jesus threatened the ruling government, told his disciples to take up their swords, informed the Jews that their temple would be destroyed by an army coming on the clouds of heaven. Jesus was anything but peaceful and loving. And he aimed his hatred at the rulers of Jerusalem. Jesus was a Jew that hated Jews.

As a fictional story, is there a lesson for Jews to learn? Why did some Jews believe Jesus was God while others believed he was Beelzebub? :devil1:

Roland

I think his condemning people who don't follow him to an eternity in a fiery hell is pretty objectionable and rather "incoherent" given his supposed message of acceptance and love.

BadKeyMachine

These are interesting thoughts. The red letters always made him seem like a pretty nice guy to me, though the dude was mad pretentious. Talk about condescending. He didn't even have the decency to drop the passive-aggressive shit when he was getting nailed to a block of wood.

storytime

Jesus was also deceitful and spoke in coded parables. He told his 12 disciples[students] that only they were intended to receive the "mysteries of the kingdom" while the multitudes were excluded. "To you it is given, but to them it is not given"(Matthew). So this presents a pre-destined plan, and no matter how good and righteous a Jewish person might have been in those days, if he was not intended to be part of that kingdom of God, then his was another destination. This may have indicated how the priesthood was the kingdom of God, and all other Jews excluded from that family of priests. Levites as example. I think it pretty well throws Gentiles[non-Jews] out of that formatted predistined plan. But is this part of the lesson? To use trickery, deceit, lies? Jesus deceived the multitudes[both Jews & Gentiles] with parables, and Paul deceived them with a false hope?

mountainman

The assets of the church under the "expansion" of Constantine and the construction of well appointed basilicas far and wide (over the top of the pagan shrines and temples) is to be associated with the greatest expenditure in precious stone that any person has ever done in all know antiquity. Sales were built on this foundation almost 1700 years ago. Before that date, christians according to Momigliano (paraphrased) were desert hermits. I am reasonably sure he was referring (with charcteristic irony) to the non-existence of physical archaeological data, etc, etc, etc.


Best wishes,


Pete

Joan of Bark

Have you actually read the gospels? Jesus rejects his parents, denigrates families, compares gentiles to dogs, and promises hellfire and brimstone for entire towns that dare to ignore his disciples.

Jesus, like the Bible as a whole, is a giant contradiction.

joemailman

Just goes to show ya just how utterly ignorant Americans are! Most of the world is at the same level. Is it any wonder then that this country and the world is run by morons?

Celine

What's interesting to me is how vastly different the concept of "character" is in story writing nowadays. In fact, understanding this technique, then applying it to our most prevalent relgious text, is what set me on the path of skepticism and ultimately atheism. Now, it's remarkable to me that so many of the scholars in the fields of ancient languages and texts (prevalent here in this forum of course) are either able to look past this, or have never considered it.

What I'm talking about is how "character" in modern fiction is defined (and taught in c.r. schools) almost entirely through the background of desire. That is to say, a "character" cannot exist in a story, or at least apply believably to a reader, unless his desires make "story sense," and connect in a rather cause-and-effect way to drama, irony, confluence, and so on.
I hope this isn't too pendantic, but as I say, what desires does Jesus as a character have in the gospels, or in Paul. Yes, we seem to know the grand, ultimate, or metaphysical "fulfillment" desires, but if you think about it, these aren't very satisfying to modern readers, who are used to personal traits, foibles, "individuality" and so on, corresponding to an individual.
This is what I think is a void when it comes to the Jesus character, at least for me, and why the search to "locate" an historical or even fictionally believable Jesus is very problematic.

No Robots

Yeah, I've read the Gospels. Have you actually ever listened to anything Bob Dylan sings?

No Robots

Christ's desire is wholly directed toward mystical union with the One, which is familiar enough to many modern readers; and this, in connection with the personality that he reveals in pursuit of this desire, is the source of his enduring appeal.