bacht

Excellent. I think the NT should be published in bound copies together with Josephus' Jewish War. Believers don't seem to know about the parallels.

lycanthrope

But where exactly in Josephus writing does it mention of "2000 rebels rushed over the cliff and drowned" ?

spamandham

I got about 1/2 way through that book and am having trouble reading anymore because it's horribly contrived. The author took a few good points and threw them into a steaming pile of outlandish speculation. The only reason I still want to finish it is to see if he has any other good points buried in the nonsense.

The one thing I've gotten from the book, is it's shifted in my mind the liklihood that the Gospels leaned on the writings of Josephus, and opened me to the possibility that they may have folded in what was originally either a satire or a comedy.

DCHindley

The link doesn't say where this account of a John's 2,000 rebels rushing over a cliff and drowning is at. It seems to be:

Wars of the Jews 4:419-435 419 And now Vespasian sent Placidus against those who had fled from Gadara, with five hundred horsemen, and three thousand footmen, while he returned himself to Caesarea, with the rest of the army. ... [422] ... These horsemen at the first attack gave way a little, contriving to entice them further from the wall; and when they had drawn them into a place fit for their purpose, they made their horsemen surround them, and threw their javelins at them. ... 425 while they [the Jews] were themselves run through by the Roman javelins, and, like the wildest of wild beasts, rushed upon the point of others' swords; so some of them were killed, as cut with their enemies' swords upon their faces, and others were dispersed by the horsemen. ... 431 As for those that ran out of the village [of Bethennabris], they stirred up such as were in the country, and exaggerating their own calamities, and telling them that the whole army of the Romans was upon them, they put them into great fear on every side; so they got in great numbers together, and fled to Jericho, 432 for they knew no other place that could afford them any hope of escaping, it being a city that had a strong wall, and a great multitude of inhabitants. 433 But Placidus, relying much upon his horsemen and his former good success, followed them, and slew all that he overtook, as far as the Jordan; and when he had driven the whole multitude to the river side, where they were stopped by the current, (for it had been augmented lately by rains, and was not fordable,) he put his soldiers in array opposite them; 434 so the necessity the others were in, provoked them to hazard a battle, because there was no place where they could flee. They then extended themselves a very long way along the banks of the river, and sustained the missiles that were thrown at them, as well as the attacks of the horsemen, who beat many of them, and pushed them into the current. 435 At this battle, hand to hand, fifteen thousand of them were slain, while the number of those who were unwillingly forced to leap into the Jordan was prodigious.

That doesn't seem to me to be a very close connection.

My own suggestion, made many moons ago on Crosstalk2, was the following passage:

Wars of the Jews 2:503-506 503 so Cestius took part of his forces and marched hastily to Zebulun, a strong city of Galilee, which was called the City of Men, and divides the country of Ptolemais from our nation; 504 this he found deserted by its men, the multitude having fled to the mountains, but full of all sorts of good things; those he allowed the soldiers to plunder, and set fire to the city, although it was of admirable beauty, and had its houses built like those in Tyre, and Sidon, and Berytus. 505 After this he overran all the country, and seized upon whatever came in his way, and set fire to the villages that were around them, and then returned to Ptolemais. 506 But when the Syrians, and especially those of Berytus, were busy in plundering, the Jews pulled up their courage again, for they knew that Cestius had retired, and attacked those who were left behind unexpectedly, and killed about two thousand of them.

This Zebulun would presumably have existed in the mountain region between Ptolemais (on the Mediterranean Sea) and the Sea of Galilee (and thus be on exactly the opposite side of the Sea of Galilee than Gadara, probably not far from Jotapata or Asochis). I suggested that this rout was perceived in a manner similar to the way modern Arab PLO nationalists used to speak of "pushing the Jews back into the sea" in the 1970s, except here it was Roman forces being pushed back to the shores of the Medierranean Sea. Granted the soldiers were Roman auxiliaries, not legionaires, but when boasting folks tend to exaggerate.

DCH

arnoldo

You can find some information of The Decapolis region in ancient Israel in the following source:

lycanthrope

More importantly is there any part of the sea of Galilee surrounded by cliffs?

lycanthrope

Thanks, I will look at it when my exam is over. Thank you

Clivedurdle

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...656193/Zebulun



Has anyone checked if Josephus is actually history? It is written by one side in a very protracted and nasty war. Are we looking at a Roman view of History? Might it have been written for propaganda purposes and the gospels be bi-products?

Clivedurdle

The Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan isn't a satire about this is it?

DCHindley

I think a town can get its name from legend as much as anything. Check any map that locates the "tribes of Israel" geographically. All of these locations are specified by passages in the OT. It was, you will notice, sort of a "resort" community, with luxurious villas. Like a lot of well-to-do areas, it takes a fancy name drawing a bit from the local history or legends about the area. The local road leads west to Ptolemais and east to Tiberias. Apparently, this was an area where rich Tiberian Jews of the elite classes lived.

DCH