fromdownunder

Given that Paul was writing letters to Christian Churches in the 40's and 50's (or, to be more precise, people involved in Jesus movements), and the Gospels were written (variously) between about 70CE and 90-110CE, I will back Toto's statement on this one.

Norm

Johann_Kaspar

Sorry but I can't help people with a xtian mentality who think that there is such a thing as a "given". Paul is literature. Those "letters" were written well after 823 auc, there were no xian "church" before that very date and the gospel (without "s") was written quite early after Herod's death.

Unsupported assertions? Like yours.
Only you don't understand about fish, fishermen and sea walking. That is a given.

Do you only understand about Paul?

fromdownunder

I am sorry, but I am not quite sure what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting that the letters legitimately attributed to Paul by most scholars (as opposed to those in the Canon that he did not write) by most people were written after Mark?

I would be very interested in your dating (and evidence) of the Pauline letters compared with Mark. (I don't give a fuck about the others - especially John)

If one accepts any of the Pauline epistles at all, one must accept that he was writing to people who accepted some form of a "Jesus character", hence, as Toto put it, what we would call today, Christians, who possibly/probably had some sort of a "secret symbol" (let's call it a styalised fish) for recognition.

And, if you accept anything relaiting to history as we currently accept it, the author of Mark, as far as we can tell, wrote his book after 70CE, when Paul was, well.. comfortably dead.

So please tell me which way you wish to jump on this:

Did Paul write any of the books attributed to him?
Were they written before or after the book we know as Mark?

Norm

braces_for_impact

I thought the "fish" symbol had nothing to do with Pisces, and in fact is an ancient fertility symbol used by many ancient cultures?

Also, the bible says not to get into astrology, witches, magic and all that. Why then use astrology to herald a divine birth?

Chris Weimer

Thus sayest thou. But then again, this is just your usual rantings...no evidence needed.

judge

The Zodiac seems to feature in the HB and the customs of Israel. Josephus and possibly Philo mention these things IIRC.

I think the stones in the breastplate of the highpriest are said by Josephus to represent the 12 signs of th Zodiac. There are other references but its late here now and I cant find them. Google can probably be of some help.

There was some connection between the 12 tribes and the 12 zodiacal signs also IIRC.
The very first portions of the HB tell us the stars are to mark seasons and signs (?).
I think for ancient man the zodiac was very much part of life. The movement of the zodiac (or the ecliptic) through the sky over the year marked the various times of the year. When to plant etc etc ...(the precession of the equinoxes only altering this over long periods.

Johann_Kaspar

Just fine. Now explain to us what is the meaning of "walking on the sea". I will be waiting with a big interest.

Johann_Kaspar

YYep, like the 7 days of the week. Precession of equinoxes: bull era (Mithra), lamb (aries) era, fishes era, aquarius era... each about 2000 years long... :huh:

Chris Weimer

How is this relevant again? Try producing some evidence for your assertions rather than introducing some a red herring.

Johann_Kaspar

I am asking you a question. Can you answer it or not? It is as simple as that.

To be relevant, maybe I should open another thread...

In any case, it is relevant because everybody seems to discuss about something they have no anwser, no clue, the very meaning of the gospel.

Evidence!? Can the blinds see?
You will have to work on it yourself. Any real, serious "scholar" should be able to find what is the explanation of these simple words: "walking on the sea".

It is more confortable to avoid answering, isn't it, but it is clear that it would be only a way to hide one's ignorance.

:wave: