Merzbow42

I think the thing that must get Christians the most is that there are 1 billion Hindus, 1 billion Muslims, and 1 billion Buddhists and unreligious who are living happy, satisfying lives (and have been doing so for millenia) while having absolutely nothing to do with their Bible, their Jesus, and their God. Just thinking about this makes it so clear how stunningly irrelevant the fantasy of a utopian/dystopian afterlife really is.

If the only thing you can hold over the heads of those you wish to 'save' is the threat of being brought back from the dead and then imprisoned for eternity, but we'll have to take your word for it because you have no evidence, you're really grasping at straws.

Merzbow42

And, of course, the same thing applies to Muslims. In contrast, the Hindus and Buddhists are infinitely more evolved.

InChristGE

Is that why you don't want to believe?

Here's what Jesus said in John 9:41

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Merzbow42

Umm no, I don't want to believe because anything good that there is in Christian doctrine is equally replaceable by conscience and reason. Really all that you have to get people to buy into this charade is the unfalsifiable threat of a nasty afterlife. And all the while, millions of people in Bombay who could care one whit about Jesus are marrying, holding down jobs, celebrating, and dying (permanently) in satisfaction with their lives. Doesn't it make you feel the tiniest bit irrelevant?

seebs

I don't see why it should bug me. Nothing about that seems objectionable.

If only Christians were ever happy or moral, I would be a little concerned; wouldn't that imply that our moral teachings were not in fact true, if they only worked for people who accepted a whole lot of specific cosmology along with them?

4 billion

Muslims and Christians are the same religion, from the Quran

3:45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)

Merzbow42

But there was absolutely nothing new in Christian moral teachings. It was all there before. There is nothing practical the Bible offers except for the promise of good times after death. And it's only common sense to demand evidence when asked to buy into a scheme for a promised reward at the end. What's so different about this scheme that we should treat it differently? How about I get half now and half later if I accept Jesus?

Actually this analogy would work better if I was talking about Islam. How about I get 36 virgins now if I take Muhammad as a prophet, and 36 more when I die?

InChristGE

What is happiness and joy to you? Having a succcessful life?

seebs

Can you find me an earlier teaching to love one's enemy? Not just treat them okay; actually love them.

I've not yet found one.

Anyway, so what if it were all there before?

Well, those moral teachings are apparently fairly practical, what with being found all over. I like the way the one guy said 'em.

Agreed.

But the Beatitudes are a new way of life, not a revenge fantasy. I don't understand or know about or really even care that much about the afterlife. I know that I am happier and better able to enjoy my life now that I have found a better way to live it.

How about you get joy and fulfillment if you live the way Jesus said, and if there's an afterlife, hey, cool.

tapley54

The problem with this argument is that the same could be said for worshipping any diety.

Why not say, "you get joy and fulfillment if you live the way [insert any diety here] said..."

The problem with this is, of course, that almost every diety condemns the followers of the other dieties.

Further, I would argue that religion causes more harm than good. As a theist, I once believed I was very happy and complete with my God. But now I realize that I was so afraid to become "worldly" that it held me back from making better decisions. Now I see that religion does all it can to prevent a lot of joy and success from being had.