Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 10-07-2010, 06:44 AM

Please note in the above (once again) that as 'outsider' without boundary but inside the protection of the fold that is maintained by the good shepherd Catholics are not Christian and do not want to be (or should not want to be) counted among the righteous if they ever want to be counted among 'the wicked'. Hence, sinners they are and have the confessionals to prove it much in the same way as Jews are sinners and not Christians . . . and once they are Christian they will no longer be Catholic of Jew but solitary individuals with a mind of their own, which then is why Eu-phrates (bright mind) is the end of it all.

Zeluvia · 10-07-2010, 09:42 AM

I am a slave in Egypt. I just survived plagues. I was rescued by a sea parting, then followed a pillar of light into the desert eating "mana" that fell from heaven. If I am THEN stupid enough to fail to worship the guy doing all this, I should be burnt alive.

Some real mongos must have been in this group. God certainly didn't want morons like this breeding.

Sajara · 10-07-2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeluvia

I am a slave in Egypt. I just survived plagues. I was rescued by a sea parting, then followed a pillar of light into the desert eating "mana" that fell from heaven. If I am THEN stupid enough to fail to worship the guy doing all this, I should be burnt alive.

Some real mongos must have been in this group. God certainly didn't want morons like this breeding.

Z brings up a good point. Why did God choose /them/? They obviously aren't very bright with everything that went on around them.

I mean, the quail plague, then the combustion of almost 15,000 Israelites for rebeling, and then the snake plague...and they still complain? I'd have learned to keep my mouth shut.

MarkA · 10-09-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But what is 'incompetent' about this arrangement? The Israelites have to give up their selfishness and in exchange God will redeem them. Sounds like a reasonable trade especially if a place in the world to come is included in the deal.

I was watching Madonna's Body of Evidence for some reason with my wife for a few minutes tonight. Someone told her that if she made this God awful film she'd become a star. So here she is taking off her clothes, playing with herself naked - all for the purpose of establishing herself as a 'legitimate' film actress.

We all enter into strange covenants, arrangements and 'deals' every day of our lives. All with the hope of some 'betterment' at the end of our days.

The basic idea behind the Jewish religion is that God is a tough dude who demands total obedience. It's only because we live a pampered existence behind the walls of our heavily indebted society that this idea seems antiquated and 'out of touch.'

The idea that God or the world should be other than what they have always been merely because we as people are 'important' and 'mean something' seems far more delusional than positing the existence of a 'mean' God.

I have always found that religious belief sky rockets in countries which can't count on the artificialities of modern life. This doesn't mean that they are living in a fantasy world or that they are 'out of touch.' We are.

So all social and political advances throughout history that attempt to liberate humans from oppression are 'out of touch' and we all must obey the Leader without question?

Joan of Bark · 10-11-2010, 11:05 AM

But did the Israelites really agree to the covenant? From my reading of Exodus it seems as if YHWH forced the contract on them. Could an individual Israelite reject the terms? I suppose they could have not smeared blood over the doorway to their homes and had their firstborn slaughtered as a way of saying no!, but then it seems that the covenant was agreed to by coercion. Doesn't that make it invalid?

semiopen · 10-11-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

But did the Israelites really agree to the covenant? From my reading of Exodus it seems as if YHWH forced the contract on them. Could an individual Israelite reject the terms? I suppose they could have not smeared blood over the doorway to their homes and had their firstborn slaughtered as a way of saying no!, but then it seems that the covenant was agreed to by coercion. Doesn't that make it invalid?

The acceptance of the covenant is often given to Exodus 19:8

Quote:

All the people answered together, and said, "All that Yahweh has spoken we will do." Moses reported the words of the people to Yahweh.

Exodus 19:3-8

Quote:

3 and Moses went up to God. The LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus shall you say to the house of Jacob and declare to the children of Israel: 4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Me. 5 Now then, if you will obey Me faithfully and keep My covenant, you shall be My treasured possession among all the peoples. Indeed, all the earth is Mine, 6 but you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel." 7 Moses came and summoned the elders of the people and put before them all that the LORD had commanded him. 8 All the people answered as one, saying, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the people's words to the LORD.

Chili · 10-12-2010, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

[

Exodus 19:3-8

Quote:

3 and Moses went up to God. The LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus shall you say to the house of Jacob and declare to the children of Israel: 4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Me. 5 Now then, if you will obey Me faithfully and keep My covenant, you shall be My treasured possession among all the peoples. Indeed, all the earth is Mine, 6 but you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel." 7 Moses came and summoned the elders of the people and put before them all that the LORD had commanded him. 8 All the people answered as one, saying, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the people's words to the LORD.

Here is the problem! I was second hand to them via Moses from the Lord instead of God and this came to Moses while on a spiritual high giving him the idea that you can flock people into heaven.

Their answer should have been to let God tell each one of them.

Sheshbazzar · 10-12-2010, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

But did the Israelites really agree to the covenant? From my reading of Exodus it seems as if YHWH forced the contract on them. Could an individual Israelite reject the terms? I suppose they could have not smeared blood over the doorway to their homes and had their firstborn slaughtered as a way of saying no!, but then it seems that the covenant was agreed to by coercion. Doesn't that make it invalid?

The acceptance of the covenant is often given to Exodus 19:8

Exodus 19:3-8

Quote:

3 and Moses went up to God. The LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus shall you say to the house of Jacob and declare to the children of Israel: 4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Me. 5 Now then, if you will obey Me faithfully and keep My covenant, you shall be My treasured possession among all the peoples. Indeed, all the earth is Mine, 6 but you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel." 7 Moses came and summoned the elders of the people and put before them all that the LORD had commanded him. 8 All the people answered as one, saying, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the people's words to the LORD.

But they didn't.
And according to the account of Scripture neither did Moses.
No uncircumcised man was under or bound by that Covenant.
Moses gave myrid detailed written laws and rules regarding the requirement and practice of circumcision.
Then, according to Scripture, effectively totally suspended and banned the practice for the next forty years, all the rest of the days of his life.....
there was not one single circumcision performed. (Josh 5:2-7)
The Laws of YHWH as given by Moses were NOT kept, obeyed, or diligently observed, not even by Moses himself!

semiopen · 10-12-2010, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Here is the problem! I was second hand to them via Moses from the Lord instead of God and this came to Moses while on a spiritual high giving him the idea that you can flock people into heaven.

Their answer should have been to let God tell each one of them.

That is a problem. A lot of the anti-Jesus rap is that he was/is an intermediary.

The pillar of fire/cloud in the wilderness is also an issue:

Quote:

Ex 14:19 The angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them, and stood behind them.

Quote:

Ex 13:21Yahweh went before them by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them on their way, and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light, that they might go by day and by night: 22 the pillar of cloud by day, and the pillar of fire by night, didn't depart from before the people.

Quote:

Ex 32-33Yahweh said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin."

Moses is supposed to have told God not to have the angel go before them as an intermediary.

God himself was definitely in the cloud before the tent of meeting.

Chili · 10-13-2010, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Here is the problem! I was second hand to them via Moses from the Lord instead of God and this came to Moses while on a spiritual high giving him the idea that you can flock people into heaven.

Their answer should have been to let God tell each one of them.

That is a problem. A lot of the anti-Jesus rap is that he was/is an intermediary.

The pillar of fire/cloud in the wilderness is also an issue:

Quote:

Ex 32-33Yahweh said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin."

Moses is supposed to have told God not to have the angel go before them as an intermediary.

God himself was definitely in the cloud before the tent of meeting.

Sure he was or there would be no cloud and to see Jesus as intermediary is a good thing so you can leave him behind like a dirty rag and a cataclist at best.

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10-07-2010, 06:44 AM	#11
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Please note in the above (once again) that as 'outsider' without boundary but inside the protection of the fold that is maintained by the good shepherd Catholics are not Christian and do not want to be (or should not want to be) counted among the righteous if they ever want to be counted among 'the wicked'. Hence, sinners they are and have the confessionals to prove it much in the same way as Jews are sinners and not Christians . . . and once they are Christian they will no longer be Catholic of Jew but solitary individuals with a mind of their own, which then is why Eu-phrates (bright mind) is the end of it all.

10-07-2010, 09:42 AM	#12
Zeluvia Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 5,172	I am a slave in Egypt. I just survived plagues. I was rescued by a sea parting, then followed a pillar of light into the desert eating "mana" that fell from heaven. If I am THEN stupid enough to fail to worship the guy doing all this, I should be burnt alive. Some real mongos must have been in this group. God certainly didn't want morons like this breeding.

10-11-2010, 11:05 AM	#15
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	But did the Israelites really agree to the covenant? From my reading of Exodus it seems as if YHWH forced the contract on them. Could an individual Israelite reject the terms? I suppose they could have not smeared blood over the doorway to their homes and had their firstborn slaughtered as a way of saying no!, but then it seems that the covenant was agreed to by coercion. Doesn't that make it invalid?

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