fr8trainman

This reminds me of christians who like to say in regard to homosexuality, "god doesn't make mistakes". Of course, they are unable to tell me why then god makes Downs Syndrome and schizophrenia, birth defects, crack babies--even they see the dearth of logic in resorting to the "it's a result of sin/choice" arguement. They are left treading in the murky "choice" arguement, unable to really explain or defend.

So, why are so many people so ademant about homosexuality being "a choice"? Certainly, some people have stronger sexual urges than others due to their own unique genetically bestowed chemical makeup. Others not so strong...this seems nature rather than choice.

The entire "gay=choice" arguement seems to exist to justify treating gay people as less than human.

I'm pretty certain my own heterosexual orientation is a product of nature. I have always been attracted to the opposite sex. I could hardly call this much of a "choice"--to me it simply seems natural since about the age of 11. Why couldn't it be the same for some or most gays? Since they are not hurting anyone, why isn't this "o.k."? I can't think of any sensible objection other than a religious one.

Happiness,

Fr8trainman

Jamie_L

I always thought homosexual rights had an element of religious freedom to it, in that the only coherent argument anyone can pose against homosexuality is a religious one. Discriminating against homosexuals is, somewhat, a religious discrimination. You are discriminating against the individual because they do not share your religious-based belief that homosexuality is wrong.

Jamie

Talulah

I have issues with fundies and homophobes who want to tell me who I can have sex with and what sorts of pieces of paper I must have before we have sex. I also have issues with supporters of gay rights and their opinions of orientation and sexuality. They try to convince people that sexuality is locked in stone and unable to be changed when you see evidence all around that this simply isn't the case. The ex-gay ministries say they have 100's of men who are happy with their wives and families, being the straight men they always wanted to be. Gays say that either the men were Bi or it is all a sham. I am not so sure. Maybe it worked for them. Sometimes I am not so sure that sexuality isn’t an on/off switch. The possibilities are always there, but some people can turn them on and off. Some can’t. What about the grandmother who comes out late in life? What about the 25-year-old lesbian who inexplicably falls for a man? I knew a girl this happened to. She was perfectly happy being a lesbian, but it happened. They didn't change; another possibility was simply opened up for them. Their eyes were opened, if you will. My best friend just came out. She was sure she wasn’t gay but she is. It just took her some time to accept the feelings and realize what they meant. But before this new self-awareness, she was SURE she was straight.

People scratch their heads while speaking of the "fluidity of female sexuality" seemingly unable to realize that this is because the accepted idea of sexuality is simply wrong. I don't believe there are straight people, bisexual people and gay people. I do believe in bell-curve sexuality but at the same time, I also believe that your tastes can change and no sexuality is hard-wired in.

No morals should be attached to love anyway, or the expression of love. I think the accepted theory of sexuality cheapens that.

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): I don't think "it's not a choice" is used to defend the morality of homosexuality...it's used to attack the morality of people who would discriminate against homosexuals for something beyond their control.

Alonzo Fyfe

As my previous post attempted to illustrate, discriminating against people for something beyond their control is not necessarily bad. My previous example was rape. If a disposition to rape were to be discovered to be beyond a person's control it would still be legitimate to discriminate against the rapist.

If a trait causes harm to others, it is legitimate to defend oneself from this harm whether the other chooses to do harm or is compelled to do so. If the trait is harmless, it is just as immoral to discriminate whether the individual has that trait as a matter of choice or a matter of chance. Choice is not a relevant distinguishing characteristic.

Indeed, the immorality of tyranny has nothing to do with imposing restrictions on people who have no choice -- but is defined in terms of its imposing limitations on people who would have chosen otherwise if they were free to do so. The immorality of limiting free speech, for example, is not lessened in any way by the fact that the speaker could voluntarily decide not to speak -- by the fact that speaking is not a compulsion that provides the speaker with no choice.

Alonzo Fyfe

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): I have no quarrel with that. It's just that I've never heard anyone argue that homosexuality is "moral" because it's not a choice.

Revelation_Man

I agree with your entire argument completely.

And I have rl evidence of this being the case.

A guy I knew in secondary, he was the trumpet player in our band (I was the drummer). He went every which way. Gay, straight, Bi, poly, he did everything. Then he knocked up my cousin and married her, respectively. A few years later, they divorced. Then, rather recently, he remarries some other git, a female, and he seems rather happy. Bastard.

Then this other guy, our lead singer, he had one bf that we pretty much all knew of. Could've just been a stalker, though, cos our lead singer continued to date women and maintain his heterosexuality. He did eventually completely break off the relationship with the bf and I think he's in America now. Then again, I seem to recall hearing that the bf died sometime in 89 I think. Police shoot out or something, he was in the drug trade. I hear vague things about the former lead singer from people that know his parents. Apparently he's pimping out to all those American women.

See, gay-rights activists, two examples right there that your sexuality is a choice.